Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | ... | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22
11505 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 5211

Trusted

  Reply # 1404197 12-Oct-2015 11:04
Send private message

Fred99:
MikeB4: The TPP has produced more FUD than the open source v proprietary software debates over the decades.


It probably has.  Regardless of whether the outcome is "on balance" good, bad, or neutral (and I don't know the answer to that - except it's not "all" good), if the "FUD" gains traction to the extent that it's a poison pill for politicians to ratify, those who decided that negotiations had to be totally shrouded in secrecy in the manner it was, might take a lesson from that with any future FTA negotiations. 


I do believe that before ratification takes place it should be opened up for all to see and the sent to select committee and also open to public submission.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


3535 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 125

Trusted

  Reply # 1404202 12-Oct-2015 11:10
One person supports this post
Send private message

Fred99:
MikeB4: The TPP has produced more FUD than the open source v proprietary software debates over the decades.


It probably has.  Regardless of whether the outcome is "on balance" good, bad, or neutral (and I don't know the answer to that - except it's not "all" good), if the "FUD" gains traction to the extent that it's a poison pill for politicians to ratify, those who decided that negotiations had to be totally shrouded in secrecy in the manner it was, might take a lesson from that with any future FTA negotiations. 

Well said.  I see that Labour are now saying that the TPP fails 4 out of their 5 'Bottom Lines'.  With Hilary Clinton also against the TPP, my hope is that most countries around the Pacific Rim reject this power grab by big American businesses and send them packing.  The gains are minimal yet the cost -- particularly in terms of electronic freedom -- is huge.





 
 
 
 


780 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 347

Subscriber

  Reply # 1404206 12-Oct-2015 11:13
One person supports this post
Send private message

MikeB4: The TPP has produced more FUD than the open source v proprietary software debates over the decades.


Actually, until it has been signed we simply don't know.

We KNOW the MPAA are over the top in the USA
We KNOW the RIAA are over the top in the USA
We KNOW all about Patent trolls in the USA
We KNOW health care costs twice as much in the US as it does here.
We KNOW the oil industry in the US is damaging the environment (fracking anyone)
We KNOW how lobby groups in the US have enormous power
We KNOW that investor state nations have sued others
We KNOW US corporations had a hand in draughting sections of the TPPA (while our elected officials were not privy to the same info)

And the 2 Billion benefit, well the 2008-2009 drought cost us 2.8 Billion.
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/drought-costs-nz-28-billion


The "Benefits" are in the noise level of the economy, a good/bad season will have a greater impact.


Just work on the basis that the "rewards" will be about 1/2 what the government promises and the bad will be atlas twice as bad.

On that basis, it might be at best worth a couple of hundred million if we are lucky. And we only need to be sued by one company for most of that to go west.


780 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 347

Subscriber

  Reply # 1404212 12-Oct-2015 11:15
Send private message

MikeB4:
Fred99:
MikeB4: The TPP has produced more FUD than the open source v proprietary software debates over the decades.


It probably has.  Regardless of whether the outcome is "on balance" good, bad, or neutral (and I don't know the answer to that - except it's not "all" good), if the "FUD" gains traction to the extent that it's a poison pill for politicians to ratify, those who decided that negotiations had to be totally shrouded in secrecy in the manner it was, might take a lesson from that with any future FTA negotiations. 


I do believe that before ratification takes place it should be opened up for all to see and the sent to select committee and also open to public submission.




Better yet, make it part of our flag referendum.

Ultimately both are about NZ as a nation and our national sovereignty and identity.



11505 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 5211

Trusted

  Reply # 1404216 12-Oct-2015 11:20
Send private message

sir1963:
MikeB4: The TPP has produced more FUD than the open source v proprietary software debates over the decades.


Actually, until it has been signed we simply don't know.

We KNOW the MPAA are over the top in the USA
We KNOW the RIAA are over the top in the USA
We KNOW all about Patent trolls in the USA
We KNOW health care costs twice as much in the US as it does here.
We KNOW the oil industry in the US is damaging the environment (fracking anyone)
We KNOW how lobby groups in the US have enormous power
We KNOW that investor state nations have sued others
We KNOW US corporations had a hand in draughting sections of the TPPA (while our elected officials were not privy to the same info)

And the 2 Billion benefit, well the 2008-2009 drought cost us 2.8 Billion.
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/drought-costs-nz-28-billion


The "Benefits" are in the noise level of the economy, a good/bad season will have a greater impact.


Just work on the basis that the "rewards" will be about 1/2 what the government promises and the bad will be atlas twice as bad.

On that basis, it might be at best worth a couple of hundred million if we are lucky. And we only need to be sued by one company for most of that to go west.



sort of my point, when things are down under a veil FUD is generated. When done in the open FUD is destroyed.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


780 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 347

Subscriber

  Reply # 1404226 12-Oct-2015 11:35
Send private message

MikeB4:
sir1963:
MikeB4: The TPP has produced more FUD than the open source v proprietary software debates over the decades.


Actually, until it has been signed we simply don't know.

We KNOW the MPAA are over the top in the USA
We KNOW the RIAA are over the top in the USA
We KNOW all about Patent trolls in the USA
We KNOW health care costs twice as much in the US as it does here.
We KNOW the oil industry in the US is damaging the environment (fracking anyone)
We KNOW how lobby groups in the US have enormous power
We KNOW that investor state nations have sued others
We KNOW US corporations had a hand in draughting sections of the TPPA (while our elected officials were not privy to the same info)

And the 2 Billion benefit, well the 2008-2009 drought cost us 2.8 Billion.
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/drought-costs-nz-28-billion


The "Benefits" are in the noise level of the economy, a good/bad season will have a greater impact.


Just work on the basis that the "rewards" will be about 1/2 what the government promises and the bad will be atlas twice as bad.

On that basis, it might be at best worth a couple of hundred million if we are lucky. And we only need to be sued by one company for most of that to go west.



sort of my point, when things are down under a veil FUD is generated. When done in the open FUD is destroyed.


Another issue is that the politicians are not actually held liable for their errors.

They stick "at risk" MPs they want to save in safe seats or at the top of the party list to ensure they get in
Even if they screw up badly and don't get into power, they still get into government
They get rewarded later with "appointments" overseas.
They get a gold plated pension.

There needs to be far more accountability than just an election.

For a start, get rid of the higher salaries commission, make ALL positions fixed based on the average income (not wage)
If NZ prospers, so do they
If NZ slumps, so do they

Make their pension invested solely into NZ, if the country does well, so do they, if not...well you see what happens.

FIX the amount they can spend on "support staff" as a % of MPs salary. If they want o spend it all on a spin doctor rather than a analyst and secretarial staff, so be it, but once the money is gone, it is gone.




6168 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2894

Subscriber

  Reply # 1404228 12-Oct-2015 11:36
One person supports this post
Send private message

 

 

Is there seriously any hope that this will not be ratified in NZ? We have a PM whose entire mission in life is sucking up to the US president and a rubber-stamp parliament. I would very much like to think there will be some serious debate about this but I have grave doubts. The train is already in motion and nothing will stop it.





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


780 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 347

Subscriber

  Reply # 1404231 12-Oct-2015 11:45
One person supports this post
Send private message

Rikkitic:   Is there seriously any hope that this will not be ratified in NZ? We have a PM whose entire mission in life is sucking up to the US president and a rubber-stamp parliament. I would very much like to think there will be some serious debate about this but I have grave doubts. The train is already in motion and nothing will stop it.



well when you have this:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11527183

i.e. Rodney Hide out and out lying about the TPPA.

1. It is NOT signed by NZ, so the TPPA in not in effect.
2. The USA, Japan, Australia, etc etc etc all have not signed either

The TPPA exists only on paper, not in law, anywhere !



JWR

730 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 236


  Reply # 1404339 12-Oct-2015 13:58
One person supports this post
Send private message

sir1963:
Rikkitic:   Is there seriously any hope that this will not be ratified in NZ? We have a PM whose entire mission in life is sucking up to the US president and a rubber-stamp parliament. I would very much like to think there will be some serious debate about this but I have grave doubts. The train is already in motion and nothing will stop it.



well when you have this:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11527183

i.e. Rodney Hide out and out lying about the TPPA.

1. It is NOT signed by NZ, so the TPPA in not in effect.
2. The USA, Japan, Australia, etc etc etc all have not signed either

The TPPA exists only on paper, not in law, anywhere !




There is very little that Rodney Hide says that makes any sense.

Look at his argument (personal attack) against Professor Jane Kelsey.

- Marxism is a failed doctrine.

- Jane Kelsey was taught by Marxists, she is a Marxist and therefore she is wrong.

That could easily be adapted to...

- The ACT party is a failed party.

- Rodney Hide was the leader, his ideas are flawed and therefore he is wrong.

Getting back to the TPPA... Some things will clearly be more expensive for the New Zealand consumer.

Is there anything that will be cheaper? I can't think of anything so far.



1353 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 694


  Reply # 1404351 12-Oct-2015 14:08
Send private message

sir1963:
Rikkitic:   Is there seriously any hope that this will not be ratified in NZ? We have a PM whose entire mission in life is sucking up to the US president and a rubber-stamp parliament. I would very much like to think there will be some serious debate about this but I have grave doubts. The train is already in motion and nothing will stop it.



well when you have this:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11527183

i.e. Rodney Hide out and out lying about the TPPA.

1. It is NOT signed by NZ, so the TPPA in not in effect.
2. The USA, Japan, Australia, etc etc etc all have not signed either

The TPPA exists only on paper, not in law, anywhere !




Could you clarify where you think he is lying? I can't see it myself

780 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 347

Subscriber

  Reply # 1404368 12-Oct-2015 14:30
Send private message

shk292:
sir1963:
Rikkitic:   Is there seriously any hope that this will not be ratified in NZ? We have a PM whose entire mission in life is sucking up to the US president and a rubber-stamp parliament. I would very much like to think there will be some serious debate about this but I have grave doubts. The train is already in motion and nothing will stop it.



well when you have this:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11527183

i.e. Rodney Hide out and out lying about the TPPA.

1. It is NOT signed by NZ, so the TPPA in not in effect.
2. The USA, Japan, Australia, etc etc etc all have not signed either

The TPPA exists only on paper, not in law, anywhere !




Could you clarify where you think he is lying? I can't see it myself





"Well, the deal has now been agreed. And miracle of miracles, the sun still shines."



Please tell me WHO has agreed ? Not NZ, not the USA, not Australia, nor Japan nor any other parties to the negotiations.
One could say the TPPA has not been agreed to by any nation, and Miracle of Miracles , the sun still shines, and be as accurate.

There are NO signatures and NO agreement yet. It is at best an "offer". More over it is an agreement between multiple parties, even if NZ signs
the rest can refuse and there is still no agreement.

Until it has been signed it has no legal standing. Our copyright is still at 50 years not 70. Our ability to import generics medicines has not changed, there are no investor state nation clauses we are bound to, in fact there is not one clause in that agreement that has any standing what so ever. So all of those tariffs he talks about being gone are still there, no change, not one of them is gone.

Rodney Hyde is not stupid, he fully understands this, and he knew what he said was untrue. Its either that or we have to accept that the ACT party put a moron in as leader.

What WILL be interesting is that all of that literature, art, music, film that is between 50-70 years old.... what happens.
I can legally copy it now, can I be  prosecuted for piracy afterwards ?

1353 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 694


  Reply # 1404400 12-Oct-2015 14:38
Send private message

sir1963:


"Well, the deal has now been agreed. And miracle of miracles, the sun still shines."



Please tell me WHO has agreed ??


All of the negotiating parties have agreed what the deal should be; the deal has been agreed.  Nobody has said it has been signed (well, actually some of the anti-TPPA commenters on the article have).

The content of the TPP has been agreed; now the democratically elected governments get to choose whether they ratify it.  They don't get to choose to amend it, or sign up to bits of it - because the content has already been agreed.

The only way in which Rodney has lied, is if you define lying as "saying something with which I disagree".  I'm not saying I agree with him, but he hasn't lied

780 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 347

Subscriber

  Reply # 1404432 12-Oct-2015 14:59
One person supports this post
Send private message

shk292:
sir1963:


"Well, the deal has now been agreed. And miracle of miracles, the sun still shines."



Please tell me WHO has agreed ??


All of the negotiating parties have agreed what the deal should be; the deal has been agreed.  Nobody has said it has been signed (well, actually some of the anti-TPPA commenters on the article have).

The content of the TPP has been agreed; now the democratically elected governments get to choose whether they ratify it.  They don't get to choose to amend it, or sign up to bits of it - because the content has already been agreed.

The only way in which Rodney has lied, is if you define lying as "saying something with which I disagree".  I'm not saying I agree with him, but he hasn't lied



The wording of the offer has been agreed to by the negotiators.

This is the equivalent to lawyers agreeing on the text in a sales and purchase agreement for a house.
However BOTH the vendor and the purchaser need to agree and sign, until that time there is no agreement.

I can come to your house a million times with the Auckland Law Society (the standard agreement) sale and purchase agreement, but I sure as hell can't tell any of your neighbours "the deal has now been agreed".

NO country has yet agreed to anything and util such time they do and sign, there is no deal. Any and all countries can reject it.

Rodney is clearly intimating that the TPPA has been signed "the deal has now been agreed".  He is not saying the wording has been agreed to, he is not saying the negotiations have agreed to the contents of a document, he is clearly intimating the agreement has been completed and it has made zero difference to NZ and its economy.

THAT is untrue.







gzt

9259 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1318


  Reply # 1404436 12-Oct-2015 15:04
Send private message

Kyanar:
cruxis:

It is get the rugbygames onto a pc so I could use Emby to stream it out to a location without mysky, works a treat. 

Looking further into TPP Such I usefull thing now gets a harsh penalty now.


Never mind the TPP, that was already illegal. You broke copyright law twice, actually - once when you copied it from the MySky to the PC, and again when you rebroadcasted it. And rebroadcasting is a huge no-no. Pretty sure they always pursue that as commercial copyright infringement, which is actually a criminal offence. (I do not believe that charge would actually stick in this case, but you certainly would get a fine. Probably a hefty one because IRB are pretty aggressive).

I'm not sure that offence exists at present.

1353 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 694


  Reply # 1404608 12-Oct-2015 19:49
Send private message

sir1963:

Rodney is clearly intimating that the TPPA has been signed "the deal has now been agreed".  He is not saying the wording has been agreed to, he is not saying the negotiations have agreed to the contents of a document, he is clearly intimating the agreement has been completed and it has made zero difference to NZ and its economy.

THAT is untrue.



So, you infer a meaning out of RH's words that is not something he said, and then claim he has "outright lied" based on this inaccurate inference.

Sounds like much of the anti-TPP FUD to date, tbh

1 | ... | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

$3.74 million for new electric vehicles in New Zealand
Posted 17-Jan-2018 11:27


Nova 2i: Value, not excitement from Huawei
Posted 17-Jan-2018 09:02


Less news in Facebook News Feed revamp
Posted 15-Jan-2018 13:15


Australian Government contract awarded to Datacom Connect
Posted 11-Jan-2018 08:37


Why New Zealand needs a chief technology officer
Posted 6-Jan-2018 13:59


Amazon release Silk Browser and Firefox for Fire TV
Posted 21-Dec-2017 13:42


New Chief Technology Officer role created
Posted 19-Dec-2017 22:18


All I want for Christmas is a new EV
Posted 19-Dec-2017 19:54


How clever is this: AI will create 2.3 million jobs by 2020
Posted 19-Dec-2017 19:52


NOW to deploy SD-WAN to regional councils
Posted 19-Dec-2017 19:46


Mobile market competition issues ComCom should watch
Posted 18-Dec-2017 10:52


New Zealand government to create digital advisory group
Posted 16-Dec-2017 08:47


Australia datum changes means whole country moving 1.8 metres north-east
Posted 16-Dec-2017 08:39


UAV Traffic Management Trial launching today in New Zealand
Posted 12-Dec-2017 16:06


UFB connections pass 460,000
Posted 11-Dec-2017 11:26



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.