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721 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1404614 12-Oct-2015 20:02
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shk292:
sir1963:

Rodney is clearly intimating that the TPPA has been signed "the deal has now been agreed".  He is not saying the wording has been agreed to, he is not saying the negotiations have agreed to the contents of a document, he is clearly intimating the agreement has been completed and it has made zero difference to NZ and its economy.

THAT is untrue.



So, you infer a meaning out of RH's words that is not something he said, and then claim he has "outright lied" based on this inaccurate inference.

Sounds like much of the anti-TPP FUD to date, tbh


Ok, it looks like your version of english comprehension is different to mine, So you clearly explain what this means as per the news paper column he wrote.

"Well, the deal has now been agreed. And miracle of miracles, the sun still shines."


gzt

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  Reply # 1404615 12-Oct-2015 20:06
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The deal is signed (refer wikipedia). There is a fluid political situation in many signatory nations giving rise to uncertainly about ratification. Is Hide celebrating far too early? Time will tell.

 
 
 
 


1194 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1404617 12-Oct-2015 20:09
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Ok, it looks like your version of english comprehension is different to mine, So you clearly explain what this means as per the news paper column he wrote.

"Well, the deal has now been agreed. And miracle of miracles, the sun still shines."



Exactly as I explained, very clearly, several times, above.  The exact text of the TPP deal has been agreed, by all of the negotiating parties.  No more negotiations, no more amendments, no more compromises.  All negotiators have agreed that this is the deal that will go for ratification.  The exact content of the deal has been agreed.

Now we're at the "take it or leave it" decision point.  That's a yes or no decision - but nothing else, because the deal has been agreed.

Is that clear enough or do you need it in your native language?

721 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1404618 12-Oct-2015 20:11
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gzt: The deal is signed There is a fluid political situation in many signatory nations giving rise to uncertainly about ratification. Did the rooster crow too early? Time will tell.



Signed by who ?

No one in any of the negotiating teams had any authority to sign up any of the countries to any deal, and as far as I know no country has yet signed the TPPA.

You can use the word ratified if you prefer, but until the TPPA and signed/ratified by the respective governments it simply remains a document.

Equally until it is signed no one has any obligations yet to make any changes.

gzt

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  Reply # 1404619 12-Oct-2015 20:15
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Yeah so after they agreed the text they are all signatories to the TPPA.

Ratification is when it goes to parliament for a vote like nz & process may be different for other countries.

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1404623 12-Oct-2015 20:23
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Look, it's not just Rodney who is a downright liar:

We have the Telegraph "The US and Japan have agreed to sign up to the trade-busting Trans-Pacific Partnership": http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11913939/What-is-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-TPP-Obama-Japan.html

T
he BBC "Trans-Pacific free trade deal agreed creating vast partnership": http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34444799

The Independent "TPP signed: the ‘biggest global threat to the internet’ agreed": http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/tpp-signed-the-biggest-global-threat-to-the-internet-agreed-as-campaigners-warn-that-secret-pact-a6680321.html

Stuff mentions "the newly-agreed trade deal": http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/72688061/trade-ministers-reach-agreement-on-tppa-in-lastminute-negotiations

etc etc etc

 

 

gzt

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  Reply # 1404624 12-Oct-2015 20:25
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sir1963

Hang on maybe you are right:

"Harper expects the full text of the agreement to be released in the next few days, with signatures on the finalized text and deal early in the new year, and ratification over the next two years."

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/historic-trade-deal-set-to-be-announced-sunday

The parties to the tppa are often referred to as signatories.

721 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1404630 12-Oct-2015 20:39
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shk292:


Ok, it looks like your version of english comprehension is different to mine, So you clearly explain what this means as per the news paper column he wrote.

"Well, the deal has now been agreed. And miracle of miracles, the sun still shines."



Exactly as I explained, very clearly, several times, above.  The exact text of the TPP deal has been agreed, by all of the negotiating parties.  No more negotiations, no more amendments, no more compromises.  All negotiators have agreed that this is the deal that will go for ratification.  The exact content of the deal has been agreed.

Now we're at the "take it or leave it" decision point.  That's a yes or no decision - but nothing else, because the deal has been agreed.

Is that clear enough or do you need it in your native language?


Well he should have said "The final proposal has been put forward", which is actually what has happened.

No deal has yet been agreed to, it can be rejected by any and all parties. NZ has made zero commitment to anyone yet.

I know when I have made a deal to buy properties, it is NOT a deal until both sides have committed and signed, until then its just an offer. I have even rejected an offer based solely on the fee the estate agent wanted for all of 1 hours work, I was NOT going to pay $10,000 to them, the terms between myself and the buyer were acceptable. Until such time as I put my signature on the paper, it was simply an offer.

I have also rejected offers outright and walked away only to have the vendor change their mind and agree to changes.

This happens a lot in business, take over proposals get rejected all the time, others get recommended , but at no time do the negotiators have the right to commit any of the parties to "a deal".


There is no legally binding agreement made yet. And yes, all parties will still make changes if it gets rejected.

And if it gets rejected miracle of miracles, the sun will still shine, international trade will still happen, people will still wake in the morning and go to their jobs, and the negotiators will continue to try and find something that is acceptable to all/some of the parties.



721 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1404631 12-Oct-2015 20:41
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shk292: Look, it's not just Rodney who is a downright liar:

We have the Telegraph "The US and Japan have agreed to sign up to the trade-busting Trans-Pacific Partnership": http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11913939/What-is-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-TPP-Obama-Japan.html

T
he BBC "Trans-Pacific free trade deal agreed creating vast partnership": http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34444799

The Independent "TPP signed: the ‘biggest global threat to the internet’ agreed": http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/tpp-signed-the-biggest-global-threat-to-the-internet-agreed-as-campaigners-warn-that-secret-pact-a6680321.html

Stuff mentions "the newly-agreed trade deal": http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/72688061/trade-ministers-reach-agreement-on-tppa-in-lastminute-negotiations

etc etc etc  



And they are all equally WRONG.

But then again, click bait headlines make money, no matter how inaccurate.

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1404634 12-Oct-2015 20:49
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sir1963:

And they are all equally WRONG.

But then again, click bait headlines make money, no matter how inaccurate.


LOL yep, they're all wrong, everyone except you.  Just like that lone soldier in some platoons who is the only one in step

721 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1404638 12-Oct-2015 20:55
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gzt: Yeah so after they agreed the text they are all signatories to the TPPA.

Ratification is when it goes to parliament for a vote like nz & process may be different for other countries.



signatory ˈsɪɡnət(ə)ri/ noun  

 

     

  1. a party that has signed an agreement, especially a state that has signed a treaty. "Britain is a signatory to the convention"


    Ratification is a principal's approval of an act of its agent where the agent lacked authority to legally bind the principal.


    No one with the authority to act as the signatory for NZ has yet signed the TPPA.
    We are not bound by the TPPA proposal until such time as it is signed. The signing will come AFTER ratification, i.e. when the government agrees to the terms and conditions and then gives someone the authority to sign the agreement on behalf of the country. Tim Gosser may be given the authority by parliament to act as signatory on NZs behalf (thus making the agreement legally binding), or it may be the PM or even the PM and Governor General need to sign.


  2. Ratification has not happened yet
  3. Signing has not happened yet, we are not yet signatories to the TPPA.

4928 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1404772 13-Oct-2015 08:45
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I have to wonder what this thread is now about. Can't you guys take this argument somewhere else?





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 




4417 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1404942 13-Oct-2015 11:59
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Rikkitic: I have to wonder what this thread is now about. Can't you guys take this argument somewhere else?



So, 3 weeks later and back to topic.  
Public outrage forced the owner of the company making Daraprim to offer to reduce the price.  Problem is that he actually hasn't yet.
So the situation is the same (for people needing this drug in the US).
Of course it falls off the front pages.  It's not "news" so can't sell advertising.

The signed - but yet to be ratified - TPP probably gives hope that such insanity won't spread to NZ.


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  Reply # 1405091 13-Oct-2015 15:45
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Why did we have to lock ourselves into a restrictive multilateral agreement dominated by American corporate interests when we are so good at negotiating bilateral free trade agreements with countries like China? The government is crowing about the financial boost we will get, but couldn't we have got much the same thing anyway without handing over the keys to the country?





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


12806 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1405102 13-Oct-2015 16:09
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Rikkitic: Why did we have to lock ourselves into a restrictive multilateral agreement dominated by American corporate interests when we are so good at negotiating bilateral free trade agreements with countries like China? The government is crowing about the financial boost we will get, but couldn't we have got much the same thing anyway without handing over the keys to the country?



I think it is about being part of the old boys club. eg. It's better to be in than out. I think all the protests about the TPP have been good, in that it has been watered down a lot, and it is nowhere near as bad as it was originally planned to be. But compromises are always lose-lose.

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