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  Reply # 1392558 23-Sep-2015 10:16
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scuwp:
frankv:
scuwp: I neither agree nor disagree on the points of views expressed over drug distribution.  Longer patents for development and $$$ for research = better drugs faster, or shorter patents = availability of drugs cheaper for wider distribution.  

I however come back to my first question...what does this have to specifically do with the TPPA?   Laws can be easily changed to alter drug patent terms at any time, drug companies can decide at any time what they will charge for their product.  Whether the TPPA comes in or not the same outcome is possible is it not?  And given that the details of the TPPA are SECRET how can anyone know, be they a qualified medical expert, world class economist, or burger-flipper at the local MD's, the outcome until the ink on the paper is dry?  

I get the concern, I just don't get how so many people are apparently experts on a supposed secret trade agreement? Or is it not so secret after all?  


One of the secret details of the TPPA that has been leaked (and not denied by John Key) is that the TPPA allows companies to sue Governments for any losses caused by law changes. So, laws WON'T be easily changed (except to provide even more profit to the corporations). Such a major change to the sovereignty of our nation needs to be openly discussed, not slipped in as a secret agreement that, once the ink is dry, can't be rescinded.

If the TPPA was such a good thing for Kiwis, why is it secret? Surely John Key would be trumpeting the goodness of it all to all and sundry. When a politician keeps something secret, it's because someone (usually the taxpayer) is getting shafted.




Conspiracy theorists playground here. Its secret because it it a trade/business negotiation. If the other parties knew our strategy or position then they could use that against NZ. I see nothing unusual in that.


Just telling you that some European environmental activists were being accused of being "conspiracy theorists" when making accusations against Euro car makers "dirty little secret".  Until yesterday that is.

I'd be happy to see accusations of others being "conspiracy theorists" put in the same category as Godwin's.
It's a loser argument - too often a last resort tactic used to try and discredit opinion when you can't argue something rationally.

See my above post re the need for "secrecy" and Pharma IP rights.  I call BS on that.

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  Reply # 1392597 23-Sep-2015 11:11
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Regarding how we know about details of the TPP - the content has been leaked at various stages.

Apart from actually reading it, which I would also recommend, I'd recommend looking at the expert commentary on it from experts in related fields Law Society/Jane Kelsey/NZ Medical Association/the US senator whose name escapes me who requested to view the text under secrecy (a former lawyer and experienced law drafter)/EFF etc.

John Keys stance on the medicines aspect is absolutely ridiculous. After basically lying ad nauseum with reassurances medicines would not cost more, he now comes out with semantics saying it won't cost you more at the chemist, which is utter nonsense. You'd have to have an IQ simmering in the low 30s not to understand that we'll all be paying for the increased costs.

Someone earlier mentioned that blocking generics is not part and parcel of the TPP, and while in the case of existing generics that is true, it is not the whole picture. The TPP seeks to extend the patent period on new medicines, which does effectively block the entry of new generics for many years, which in our Pharmac regulated environment will have fairly chilling effects on equitable access to newer treatments.






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  Reply # 1392600 23-Sep-2015 11:13
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gzt: Since this is turning into a tppa discussion let's get specific:

The big prize seems to be dairy, which I think is doing ok anyway really. I realise tppa could open up some higher value markets for the same product so there is that. But other than this what is in it for New Zealand?

Now the work has been done with other parties imho it is more likely agreements will be signed on the sidelines to realise similar benefits anyway without the tricky stuff like dairy for the USA

Tppa has been delayed multiple times. Now the US is in an election cycle I really don't see any significant concessions on dairy anyway. So I think we have to ask what are the other benifits for New Zealand.


Actually Dairy could be a big looser.

Like lots of agriculture areas in the USA , Dairy has significant subsidies.

WTO rules help prevent "dumping" of subsidised goods, the TPPA steps around the WTO and could allow dairy to be dumped here or in other markets where NZ tries to sell.

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  Reply # 1392602 23-Sep-2015 11:17
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NZtechfreak: Regarding how we know about details of the TPP - the content has been leaked at various stages.

Apart from actually reading it, which I would also recommend, I'd recommend looking at the expert commentary on it from experts in related fields Law Society/Jane Kelsey/NZ Medical Association/the US senator whose name escapes me who requested to view the text under secrecy (a former lawyer and experienced law drafter)/EFF etc.

John Keys stance on the medicines aspect is absolutely ridiculous. After basically lying ad nauseum with reassurances medicines would not cost more, he now comes out with semantics saying it won't cost you more at the chemist, which is utter nonsense. You'd have to have an IQ simmering in the low 30s not to understand that we'll all be paying for the increased costs.

Someone earlier mentioned that blocking generics is not part and parcel of the TPP, and while in the case of existing generics that is true, it is not the whole picture. The TPP seeks to extend the patent period on new medicines, which does effectively block the entry of new generics for many years, which in our Pharmac regulated environment will have fairly chilling effects on equitable access to newer treatments.






Right until you get to the "NEW" trick used by Big Pharma in the USA.

The investor state rules could mean we will have to pay the US rate or get sued.

http://science.slashdot.org/story/15/09/22/1924250/another-pharma-company-recaptures-a-generic-medication

Daraprim, currently used as a niche AIDS medication, was developed and patented by Glaxo (now GlaxoSmithKlein) decades ago. Though Glaxo's patent has long since expired, a startup called Turing Pharmaceuticals has been the latest pharma company to 'recapture' a generic by using legal trickery to gain exclusive rights to sell it in the US. Though Turing has just marketing rights, not a patent, on Daraprim, it takes advantage of pharma-pushed laws that forbid Americans from shopping around on the world market for prescriptions. Not long ago, Google was fined half a billion dollars by the FDA for allowing perfectly legal Canadian pharmacies to advertise on its site. So now that Turing has a lock on Daraprim, it has raised the price from $13.50 a pill to $750. In 2009 another small pharma company inveigled an exclusive on the longstanding generic gout medication colchicine from the FDA, effectively rebranding the unmodified generic so they could raise its price by a similar percentage.

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  Reply # 1392642 23-Sep-2015 12:23
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NorthernZone:  I note that several recent trade agreements have dealt with the same sort of issue and in every case there have been "carve out" positions whereby each country has protected its "sovereign rights" in certain areas. Since the Govt has repeatedly insisted that Pharmac, other health & environmental policies, will be fundamentally preserved, I infer they have placed such matters in their "carved out" area.


My understanding is that, rather than being fundamentally preserved, Pharmac will remain, but it will essentially have its teeth pulled and won't provide all of the cost-saving benefits it does now.




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  Reply # 1392643 23-Sep-2015 12:26
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Some clarification re Daraprim.

Martin Shkreli - owner of Turing Pharma who bought the rights to sell the drug in the US is a hedge fund manager who's facing a US$65 million dollar lawsuit for financial impropriety while in his position with another pharma company he's been involved with - they're now suing him.

The patent for Pyrimethamine has long expired, but the process to register "generics" is much more arduous in the USA than here.  That said, at this point, I don't think a generic Pyrimethamine is registered in NZ.
I showed links to Chinese makers of BP grade Pyrimethamine at low prices above somewhere, it's also available in generic tablet form in India for a few cents a tablet. 

Heaven forbid that a TPA could harmonize that process between NZ and US and we'd get stuck with a system like theirs, allowing people of the character type Shkreli seems to typify, to profit in NZ.

Just as a side topic, GPs can actually prescribe import and dispense unregistered prescription drugs.  Many may choose not to (and some might not know they even can), there's plenty of risk issues relating to informed patient consent etc. which could turn very nasty indeed for the GP if something went wrong.

Lastly, while I support free-trade, I don't believe it should come at any (non-financial) cost.  I don't want to ever be in a "deal" with a country run by an evil moron like Trump.  And that's what we could be looking at (hopefully not!) very soon.

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  Reply # 1392646 23-Sep-2015 12:27
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scuwp: I neither agree nor disagree on the points of views expressed over drug distribution.  Longer patents for development and $$$ for research = better drugs faster, or shorter patents = availability of drugs cheaper for wider distribution.  

I however come back to my first question...what does this have to specifically do with the TPPA?   Laws can be easily changed to alter drug patent terms at any time, drug companies can decide at any time what they will charge for their product.  Whether the TPPA comes in or not the same outcome is possible is it not?  And given that the details of the TPPA are SECRET how can anyone know, be they a qualified medical expert, world class economist, or burger-flipper at the local MD's, the outcome until the ink on the paper is dry?  

I get the concern, I just don't get how so many people are apparently experts on a supposed secret trade agreement? Or is it not so secret after all?  


No one can say with certainty yet however John Key has stated that patents would increase - no debate, no questions just fact.  Assuming that longer patents equate to more R&D is lunacy.  All evidence to date shows that R&D spend is low, advertising and marketing spend is high, and profits are even higher.  

One aspect of the TPP that could actually help drug companies sell more without increasing cost to consumers is by enabling drug companies to directly market to consumers.  Thats the norm only in NZ & America - no other country.  Will that be in the deal?  Maybe.  Is it ethical, no its pretty shady - because we know the vast majority of consumers are not informed enough to make rational drug buying choices with things like generics on the table. 

Think of all of those panadol ads with their faster onset version.  Yes the soluble coating around the pill enables it to be absorbed fractionally faster.  The clinical evidence would suggest this is around a few minutes.  Does that justify the cost 500% above generic paracetamol?

So profits of drug companys are increasing, but R&D spend is proportionally dropping.  What on earth makes you think extended patents will reverse this trend??  

Longer patents mean more people will die, and more people will have worst access to more clinically effective drugs for longer.

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  Reply # 1392724 23-Sep-2015 14:46
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The thing about the anti TPP activists is they are the same folks who have opposed previous free trade deals.  It's the same old cranks, activist academics and dripping taps with a couple of doctors thrown in for good measure.

Past trade deals have all resulted in benefits to NZ exporters, with minimal (none that I can name) down sides.

The opposition won't even commit to they will secede from an agreement if elected. 




Mike

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  Reply # 1392864 23-Sep-2015 16:05
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MikeAqua: The thing about the anti TPP activists is they are the same folks who have opposed previous free trade deals.  It's the same old cranks, activist academics and dripping taps with a couple of doctors thrown in for good measure.

Past trade deals have all resulted in benefits to NZ exporters, with minimal (none that I can name) down sides.

The opposition won't even commit to they will secede from an agreement if elected. 



Of course this is completely invalid.

It doesn't matter that what you classify as "same old cranks, activist academics and dripping taps with a couple of doctors" might be against the TTPA.

It is the quality argument that the counts, not the people involved.

I think you have accepted the pro-TTPA PR/propaganda without thinking about it.

Personally, I am very skeptical, based on the leaks I have read and the secrecy of the negotiations.

Clearly, the intent of the secrecy, is to keep information from the public in the countries involved.

I think the negotiators must expect that there would be wide scale public protest if the details were known.

Generally, I am for free trade. But, I am not supportive of foreign corporations having a lot of power in our government or legal systems.


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  Reply # 1392879 23-Sep-2015 16:18
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MikeAqua: The thing about the anti TPP activists is they are the same folks who have opposed previous free trade deals.  It's the same old cranks, activist academics and dripping taps with a couple of doctors thrown in for good measure.

Past trade deals have all resulted in benefits to NZ exporters, with minimal (none that I can name) down sides.

The opposition won't even commit to they will secede from an agreement if elected. 


You didn't think for one second that the US, Canadian and Japanese farmers will open the doors to NZ farm products do you.   Nope .  This will be a one way thing. We'll bend over and get shafted when the rest of the TPPA partners get one with their lives..




Regards,

Old3eyes


gzt

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  Reply # 1392924 23-Sep-2015 17:48
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I'm beginning to think the US opening is a mirage and what we are really doing in these negotiations is riding the coat tails and behind USA to open new Asian markets.

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  Reply # 1392949 23-Sep-2015 18:20
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So you are saying ... we are clinging to America's coattails in order to crawl up its backside?
 




I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 




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  Reply # 1392960 23-Sep-2015 18:44
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"Landing zones are clear right across the text in all but three areas," said Groser, citing market access for automobiles and dairy, and patent extensions for biologic pharmaceuticals the outstanding areas.

It sounds terrific all right.
The stumbling blocks are one thing which doesn't matter, one we won't get, and one we must definitely avoid.




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  Reply # 1393019 23-Sep-2015 19:42
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MikeAqua: The thing about the anti TPP activists is they are the same folks who have opposed previous free trade deals.  It's the same old cranks, activist academics and dripping taps with a couple of doctors thrown in for good measure.

Past trade deals have all resulted in benefits to NZ exporters, with minimal (none that I can name) down sides.

The opposition won't even commit to they will secede from an agreement if elected. 


Rubbish. Throwaway rhetoric to try and dismiss the criticism out of hand. 

I think you should actually read the text and the expert commentary, some of which has come from groups such as the Law Society and others who haven't tended to get involved in giving feedback on trade deals.






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  Reply # 1393037 23-Sep-2015 20:17
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Democratic frontrunner, Bernie Sanders, says if he wins the election next year for president, then this guy and people like him are toast. 

Good enough. 

Agreed......Here's a great reason we shouldn't signing the TPP. 

Plus all the others. 




____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


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