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70 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1394358 25-Sep-2015 13:00
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itxtme: Why not

Q1: Which of these 5 flags is your preferred alternative to the current NZ flag?

Q2: Do you want the NZ flag changed to ANY one of these alternative flags*?


If the answer to Q2 is > 50% 'No' the second referendum doesnt need to take place, thus saving half the cost of the entire exercise.   If its yes you have still achieved whats needed from the first referendum.


Q2 is impossible to answer.




In my opinion,  a second referendum needs to take place regardless. As it is only once an alternative has been chosen, that people can really get behind it, or instead campaign to keep the current flag.



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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1394362 25-Sep-2015 13:13
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Michaelfjs:


In my opinion,  a second referendum needs to take place regardless. As it is only once an alternative has been chosen, that people can really get behind it, or instead campaign to keep the current flag.




For the costs involved in doing this twice, I disagree.

You've got all the info required there to do this in one shot.

Do you want to change the flag?
If so, which do you prefer?

If more than 50% say yes, then the winner is the flag with the most votes.

 
 
 
 


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1394392 25-Sep-2015 13:52
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Apparently the addition of the new flag will cost nearly an extra 400k with 100k for testing. Looks like some places are doing very nicely from this flag process

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1394401 25-Sep-2015 13:58
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Jaxson: You've got all the info required there to do this in one shot.

Do you want to change the flag?
If so, which do you prefer?

If more than 50% say yes, then the winner is the flag with the most votes.

Imagine that your system was in place and that people voted like this:

No Change - 49%
Change to Flag A - 10%
Change to Flag B - 10%
Change to Flag C - 10%
Change to Flag D - 10%
Change to Flag E - 11%

More than 50% said yes, and flag E got the most votes. Therefore any flag could theoretically win if it got more than 10% of the votes. Compare that with the two referendum system, where more than 50% of voters need to approve the new flag.

[Edit: Rewrote post to be more clear]

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1394402 25-Sep-2015 14:00
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70 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1394409 25-Sep-2015 14:18
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Jaxson:
Michaelfjs:


In my opinion,  a second referendum needs to take place regardless. As it is only once an alternative has been chosen, that people can really get behind it, or instead campaign to keep the current flag.




For the costs involved in doing this twice, I disagree.

You've got all the info required there to do this in one shot.

Do you want to change the flag?
If so, which do you prefer?

If more than 50% say yes, then the winner is the flag with the most votes.


That's ridiculous.

Would you agree to have your car painted a different colour, without knowing yet which colour?

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1394420 25-Sep-2015 14:27
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Michaelfjs: 

That's ridiculous.

Would you agree to have your car painted a different colour, without knowing yet which colour?


Balls.

You do know what colour options are available as they're presented down below.

If you like the look of one, then you vote to change the flag and pick that option.

If you don't like any options, or don't want to change, then you opt not to change in the first box and that's it, you're done.

As for the 51% comment above, if you've voted to not change the flag, and then picked one down below then your ballot paper is void.

So, much, money spent for this thing.  What a stupid process.

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1394430 25-Sep-2015 15:12
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I don't know why we can't have all the flags (4 or 5 new ones, plus the existing flag) and you just rank them in order. Then use IRV to decide which flag is the most popular.

I suppose the idea of having an extended period to push the incumbent/favourite alternative before the 2nd referendum has merit. I don't actually know what the cost difference is between having one or two referenda.

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1394516 25-Sep-2015 18:00
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eracode: 
No - they have publicly said they have no issues with the possibility of Red Peak becoming the NZ flag. They also complimented NZ on looking at a distinctive and elegant design which would not be confused with their logo - or words to that effect.


However, there is a company - Arrow Uniforms - in NZ with a near identical logo, which according to NBR are licking their lips over a potential payday. (Leave it to the greedy kiwis ... wait what?)

Seriously, it's a horrible flag which lost out in the first consideration and the creator had a bit of a tanty and got a "groundswell" of people on Facebook and Reddit to support hijacking the democratic process. And as it happens, the petition was rigged anyway. I'm actually embarrassed for my country.

JWR

731 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1394521 25-Sep-2015 18:07
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Kyanar:
eracode: 
No - they have publicly said they have no issues with the possibility of Red Peak becoming the NZ flag. They also complimented NZ on looking at a distinctive and elegant design which would not be confused with their logo - or words to that effect.


However, there is a company - Arrow Uniforms - in NZ with a near identical logo, which according to NBR are licking their lips over a potential payday. (Leave it to the greedy kiwis ... wait what?)

Seriously, it's a horrible flag which lost out in the first consideration and the creator had a bit of a tanty and got a "groundswell" of people on Facebook and Reddit to support hijacking the democratic process. And as it happens, the petition was rigged anyway. I'm actually embarrassed for my country.


At least we have ...



to fall back on.


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1394833 26-Sep-2015 14:37
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Kyanar:
eracode: 
No - they have publicly said they have no issues with the possibility of Red Peak becoming the NZ flag. They also complimented NZ on looking at a distinctive and elegant design which would not be confused with their logo - or words to that effect.


However, there is a company - Arrow Uniforms - in NZ with a near identical logo, which according to NBR are licking their lips over a potential payday. (Leave it to the greedy kiwis ... wait what?)

Seriously, it's a horrible flag which lost out in the first consideration and the creator had a bit of a tanty and got a "groundswell" of people on Facebook and Reddit to support hijacking the democratic process. And as it happens, the petition was rigged anyway. I'm actually embarrassed for my country.


It does show how irrelevant the how panel was, as they were highly paid but had no design qualifications, and their decision has basically been overruled. The whole process was poorly designed. What makes the red peak flag any better than any other design that missed out, and how do we know there weren't other designs that missed out that had just as much support ? Online petitions are not a reliable method, and are on filed in by a small demographic of nzers. Although I prefer the red peak design over the others I am not happy how at how it was added and it required a law change to add it. It basically just confirms that the process was flawed.

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1394837 26-Sep-2015 14:44
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As it is only once an alternative has been chosen, that people can really get behind it, or instead campaign to keep the current flag.


The problem I see is a number of people have told me they don't care which flag is chosen in the first referendum because they are going to vote to keep the current flag.
I think people would have taken the first referendum much more seriously if it had been a given fact that our current flag WILL be replaced by the one we choose from these 5 options.  By leaving them thinking its probably not going to happen anyway, how many eligible voters will let a bad choice go through, leaving us stuck with a stupid tree fern that does not look like a real flag?



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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1394838 26-Sep-2015 14:49
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Kyanar: 

 the creator had a bit of a tanty and got a "groundswell" of people on Facebook and Reddit to support hijacking the democratic process. And as it happens, the petition was rigged anyway. I'm actually embarrassed for my country.


Factually incorrect: the designer Aaaron Dustin never had a "tanty" and got a "groundswell" of people on Facebook and Reddit to support hijacking the democratic process. 

Rowan Simpson who is not the designer started it all rolling with a blog called Dear John http://rowansimpson.com/2015/09/02/dear-john/

http://thespinoff.co.nz/13-09-2015/the-flag-i-started-the-red-peak-surge-because-i-love-the-silver-fern/

H
ow is a groundswell of opinion on social media sites undermining democracy? Its one of the few ways in this day and age where individuals get heard. I always thought that changing the flag would be a long and sometimes painful affair as we listen to others views who we may not agree with in the hope of finding something better that represents us all in the future.

Some people just don't like change, others don't like the flag designs presented. others the process. Thats all fine, but lets not be childish about the discussion.

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1394919 26-Sep-2015 16:49
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Personally, I hate the red peak - it seems more like a trade union motif than a flag for NZ, which is presumably why Little Andy is so keen on it.  And the whole push to include it just seems due to a bunch of petulant Key-bashers who want to sabotage the process.

There's no way we should be expected to decide whether we want a new flag until the alternative is chosen; until we know the alternative, the only sensible answer to "do you want to change the flag?" is "maybe".

I can't see why people can't just let the process run.  The money expended doesn't just disappear in a puff of smoke - it gets paid to various agencies and recycled into the economy

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1394925 26-Sep-2015 17:00
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TimA:

ROFL. Nice conspiracy theory flag, good thing (like it's basis) it'll never fly though :-)

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