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  Reply # 1397227 30-Sep-2015 11:21
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I guess a lot of this TPPA debate hinges on whether you believe the govt are fundamentally good people who want the best for NZ, or some sort of evil greedy psycopaths who will do anything, including "screwing" NZ and its populace, in order to make a buck for themselves and their "rich mates".

I'm in the former camp and believe that our govt will only sign up to this deal if it has clear net benefit to NZ.  There's no way I'm going to march in the street and wave placards demanding that this should happen though, much like the rest of the silent majority

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  Reply # 1397239 30-Sep-2015 11:35
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shk292: I guess a lot of this TPPA debate hinges on whether you believe the govt are fundamentally good people who want the best for NZ, or some sort of evil greedy psycopaths who will do anything, including "screwing" NZ and its populace, in order to make a buck for themselves and their "rich mates".


No, the third option is that they are well intentioned n wanting a good outcome but fundamentally misguided in attempting to achieve a good outcome and that it will not produce the good outcome they think it will.

And of course the fourth option, that their idea of a good outcome for the country is fundamentally different to other's idea of a good outcome for the country.





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  Reply # 1397245 30-Sep-2015 11:44
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Both major parties in this country have invested in trade liberalisation when in government.  If Labour was in power they would be for the TPP (although if they relied on a coalition with the Greens, that could be difficult).

Setting aside the party politics our economy relies on exports followed by tourism.  While NZ has developed some high value manufacturing and service firms.  Ownership of most move overseas eventually. Navman, BEP, Tait being examples.

We are, and will continue to be a food export and tourism economy.

We have strong and improving trade access into China and other Pacific Rim countries. 

I work in a primary sector that has done very well out of free trade.  If you work in a professional role in a food export sector, salary growth has been strong, primarily because of free trade and the revenue and margin it has enabled.

We produce some of the highest quality primary produce in the world. 

If we can get into Japan and the US without tariffs ... we could significantly grow our food export economy.


Linuxluver:

As for free trade....we don't really have it anyway. We export less and less manufactured goods. Most of that has gone to China, Thailand, Fiji or Vietnam. Our wages have flat-lined for over a decade. The 40-hour work week is a rarity rather than the norm. People either work a lot more...or they can't get jobs with more than 30 hours (or they would be more expensive "full time" employees).

You are incredibly lucky to have avoided all this. Somehow.  Most Kiwis have not. But yeah.....this doesn't have much to do with free trade. We're just getting screwed - full stop. Vote for more of this. Vote National. 




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  Reply # 1397257 30-Sep-2015 11:47
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sleemanj:
shk292: I guess a lot of this TPPA debate hinges on whether you believe the govt are fundamentally good people who want the best for NZ, or some sort of evil greedy psycopaths who will do anything, including "screwing" NZ and its populace, in order to make a buck for themselves and their "rich mates".


No, the third option is that they are well intentioned n wanting a good outcome but fundamentally misguided in attempting to achieve a good outcome and that it will not produce the good outcome they think it will.

And of course the fourth option, that their idea of a good outcome for the country is fundamentally different to other's idea of a good outcome for the country.


So you're adding "incompetent" or "evil and misguided" to my options of "fundamentally OK" and "evil"

I still think "fundamentally OK" is the most likely.  Time will tell I suppose

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  Reply # 1399284 3-Oct-2015 11:53
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Here we go:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11522953

Interesting how the media jumped on Helen Clark's comments about TPP, short-quoting her and missing out an important proviso:

"On the issue of Helen Clark's comments about the TPP - she said it was unthinkable New Zealand wouldn't be part of the deal - he said she had added a crucial rider - 'provided the deal was good'."


Note that Groser also accepts / endorses Labour's (non-committal) position as perfectly rational - he'd do the same.

So perhaps the world of NZ politics isn't quite as black and white (or red and blue) as people would like to believe. 

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  Reply # 1400267 5-Oct-2015 13:41
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https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/trans-pacific-partnership-charade-by-joseph-e--stiglitz-and-adam-s--hersh-2015-10

 

Re: investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS)
Imagine what would have happened if these provisions had been in place when the lethal effects of asbestos were discovered. Rather than shutting down manufacturers and forcing them to compensate those who had been harmed, under ISDS, governments would have had to pay the manufacturers not to kill their citizens. Taxpayers would have been hit twice – first to pay for the health damage caused by asbestos, and then to compensate manufacturers for their lost profits when the government stepped in to regulate a dangerous product.

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  Reply # 1400546 5-Oct-2015 20:20
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shk292: 
So you're adding "incompetent" or "evil and misguided" to my options of "fundamentally OK" and "evil"

I still think "fundamentally OK" is the most likely.  Time will tell I suppose


If that were the case, why is it that we the people get absolutely nothing from our representatives, and have no idea what's in this agreement bar some stuff that well meaning secretaries leak, but the chairman of Fonterra gets to go to Atlanta, sit with Tim Groser, and not only know what's in the agreement, but gets the chance to provide direct feedback.

No, "fundamentally OK" is the least likely. But by that token I also reject "evil". What's more likely is that the people in charge are negotiating based on idealogical grounds, without regard for the fact that the common folk do not agree with their ideology.

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  Reply # 1400557 5-Oct-2015 20:40
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The common folk voted in the government, and the government are now representing the country. That's how our democracy works.
Fonterra are there because they are a major stakeholder in the result and experts in the industry and trade.
It's secret because it's never good to reveal your bottom line



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  Reply # 1400604 5-Oct-2015 22:41
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shk292: I guess a lot of this TPPA debate hinges on whether you believe the govt are fundamentally good people who want the best for NZ, or some sort of evil greedy psycopaths who will do anything, including "screwing" NZ and its populace, in order to make a buck for themselves and their "rich mates".

I'm in the former camp and believe that our govt will only sign up to this deal if it has clear net benefit to NZ.  There's no way I'm going to march in the street and wave placards demanding that this should happen though, much like the rest of the silent majority


You've missed the point a wee bit....more than a wee bit. 

The problem in here is that at no point does the NZ public have ANY say on this deal - good or bad - until it is a done deal and can't be changed. 

In the meantime, we - officially - know nothing. 

That just isn't good enough, I'm afraid.....whether the government are narrow-minded crony capitalists or steely-eyed economic geniuses (the record to date suggest the former).

That is the issue: a complete lack of any form of democratic oversight on an agreement that could......well......we have no idea other than what we have learned via WikiLeaks and others.




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  Reply # 1400606 5-Oct-2015 22:43
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shk292: The common folk voted in the government, and the government are now representing the country. That's how our democracy works.
Fonterra are there because they are a major stakeholder in the result and experts in the industry and trade.
It's secret because it's never good to reveal your bottom line


This government has a one-seat majority because three other parties support it.

 That isn't a ringing endorsement by any measure. 




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  Reply # 1400607 5-Oct-2015 22:45
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shk292: The common folk voted in the government, and the government are now representing the country. That's how our democracy works.
Fonterra are there because they are a major stakeholder in the result and experts in the industry and trade.
It's secret because it's never good to reveal your bottom line


I don't accept that reasoning at all. The people of the nations bound by the agreement are the major stakeholders, not any single corporation. It's absolutely unacceptable that the people of every nation do not get any input whatsoever. It's not even about the specific text of the agreement, it's that every government negotiating this agreement is wilfully disregarding the will of their respective peoples, while accepting the input of "major stakeholders" like Fonterra.

No, the government is not representing the country. They're representing a subset of a minority of the country. The only way to be democratic about an agreement of this magnitude with this sort of effect on the people is to send the damn thing to a referendum. It's a hell of a lot more important than the flag popularity contest.

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  Reply # 1400613 5-Oct-2015 22:52
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I think some people need to look up "representative democracy", which is NZ's chosen system of government. Then ask who had missed the point

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  Reply # 1400615 5-Oct-2015 23:00
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Linuxluver:
shk292: The common folk voted in the government, and the government are now representing the country. That's how our democracy works.
Fonterra are there because they are a major stakeholder in the result and experts in the industry and trade.
It's secret because it's never good to reveal your bottom line


This government has a one-seat majority because three other parties support it.

 That isn't a ringing endorsement by any measure. 

Whereas if labour had allied with the greens and mana and Laila Harre and whatever other failed communists they could find, that would just be fine

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  Reply # 1401332 6-Oct-2015 20:56
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shk292: I think some people need to look up "representative democracy", which is NZ's chosen system of government. Then ask who had missed the point


You have. Clearly.

Even in representative democracy, we have these things called "referendums" which are intended to ensure that for things that affect everyone in significant ways, there is a means by which an effective representation of the will of the people can be gathered and feed into the process. Witness: the flag thing.

I'd rather spend $22 million on a referendum on TPPA than a referendum on a flag change.

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  Reply # 1401333 6-Oct-2015 20:57
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shk292: 
Whereas if labour had allied with the greens and mana and Laila Harre and whatever other failed communists they could find, that would just be fine


Based on that alone it's clear you're just trolling and there's no way we should be taking you seriously.

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