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523 posts

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  # 1399020 2-Oct-2015 18:49
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Fred99: 
Per capita, it actually is quite bad.
You're about 5-6 times more likely to be murdered in the US than here, Australia, UK, Canada etc.


And if you lived in a country where the murder rates were really high surely you would want to protect yourself? With a gun? I certainly would. 

What kind of an idiot will go and live in a dangerous place and not arm himself?

This is what people are asking the US citizens to do. They have a right to defend themselves, and that right is not going to go away any time soon. 

We have gun crime here in NZ too but there is a difference. Its rare in NZ for the gunman to actually use the gun and shoot people. Very rare actually. Why? Make the comparison, guns crime in both the US and here. In the US the guns are actually used to shoot people. So therefore the problem is not the gun, the problem is the people. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

If the US wants to solve its gun problems it needs to sort out its people first. The last thing you want to do is disarm innocent people. 



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  # 1399021 2-Oct-2015 18:52
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DizzyD:
Fred99: 
Per capita, it actually is quite bad.
You're about 5-6 times more likely to be murdered in the US than here, Australia, UK, Canada etc.


And if you lived in a country where the murder rates were really high surely you would want to protect yourself? With a gun? I certainly would. 

What kind of an idiot will go and live in a dangerous place and not arm himself?

This is what people are asking the US citizens to do. They have a right to defend themselves, and that right is not going to go away any time soon. 

We have gun crime here in NZ too but there is a difference. Its rare in NZ for the gunman to actually use the gun and shoot people. Very rare actually. Why? Make the comparison, guns crime in both the US and here. In the US the guns are actually used to shoot people. So therefore the problem is not the gun, the problem is the people. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

If the US wants to solve its gun problems it needs to sort out its people first. The last thing you want to do is disarm innocent people. 






The US rates of homicide with guns are so far outside any comparable (i.e. first world western) country that their refusal to consider gun control is farcical. New Zealand isn't wonderful but the US is a whole new level.

South Africa isn't a first world western country so to compare the two isn't fair. The two cases are very different, both in the rule of law and relative poverty of the populations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

 
 
 
 


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Ultimate Geek
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  # 1399025 2-Oct-2015 19:09
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Handle9:
DizzyD:
Fred99: 
Per capita, it actually is quite bad.
You're about 5-6 times more likely to be murdered in the US than here, Australia, UK, Canada etc.


And if you lived in a country where the murder rates were really high surely you would want to protect yourself? With a gun? I certainly would. 

What kind of an idiot will go and live in a dangerous place and not arm himself?

This is what people are asking the US citizens to do. They have a right to defend themselves, and that right is not going to go away any time soon. 

We have gun crime here in NZ too but there is a difference. Its rare in NZ for the gunman to actually use the gun and shoot people. Very rare actually. Why? Make the comparison, guns crime in both the US and here. In the US the guns are actually used to shoot people. So therefore the problem is not the gun, the problem is the people. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

If the US wants to solve its gun problems it needs to sort out its people first. The last thing you want to do is disarm innocent people. 






The US rates of homicide with guns are so far outside any comparable (i.e. first world western) country that their refusal to consider gun control is farcical. New Zealand isn't wonderful but the US is a whole new level.

South Africa isn't a first world western country so to compare the two isn't fair. The two cases are very different, both in the rule of law and relative poverty of the populations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate


Well maybe its time we started breaking the US up into its seperate states.
The results may suprise you. 

Not all the states of the US have bad gun death statistics. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

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  # 1399049 2-Oct-2015 19:22
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Handle9: 

South Africa isn't a first world western country so to compare the two isn't fair. The two cases are very different, both in the rule of law and relative poverty of the populations.



Except that it did not use to be like that.
There has never been a time in the history of South Africa where so many people are being murdered every day. 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11521645




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  # 1399060 2-Oct-2015 19:42
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DizzyD:


I just don't get the anti american sentiment from us Kiwis every time something awful happens there. This anti-American sentiment has always struck me as something us Kiwis love doing. Not sure why we do it, maybe its just that tall poppy syndrome we so famous for. 





My post wasn't anti-American. It was pro-NZ.





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 




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  # 1399065 2-Oct-2015 19:44
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DizzyD:
Fred99: 
Per capita, it actually is quite bad.
You're about 5-6 times more likely to be murdered in the US than here, Australia, UK, Canada etc.


And if you lived in a country where the murder rates were really high surely you would want to protect yourself? With a gun? I certainly would. 

What kind of an idiot will go and live in a dangerous place and not arm himself?

This is what people are asking the US citizens to do. They have a right to defend themselves, and that right is not going to go away any time soon. 

We have gun crime here in NZ too but there is a difference. Its rare in NZ for the gunman to actually use the gun and shoot people. Very rare actually. Why? Make the comparison, guns crime in both the US and here. In the US the guns are actually used to shoot people. So therefore the problem is not the gun, the problem is the people. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

If the US wants to solve its gun problems it needs to sort out its people first. The last thing you want to do is disarm innocent people. 




This kind of reasoning is exactly why there is such a problem in the USA.





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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Ultimate Geek
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  # 1399077 2-Oct-2015 19:50
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Rikkitic:
DizzyD:
Fred99: 
Per capita, it actually is quite bad.
You're about 5-6 times more likely to be murdered in the US than here, Australia, UK, Canada etc.


And if you lived in a country where the murder rates were really high surely you would want to protect yourself? With a gun? I certainly would. 

What kind of an idiot will go and live in a dangerous place and not arm himself?

This is what people are asking the US citizens to do. They have a right to defend themselves, and that right is not going to go away any time soon. 

We have gun crime here in NZ too but there is a difference. Its rare in NZ for the gunman to actually use the gun and shoot people. Very rare actually. Why? Make the comparison, guns crime in both the US and here. In the US the guns are actually used to shoot people. So therefore the problem is not the gun, the problem is the people. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

If the US wants to solve its gun problems it needs to sort out its people first. The last thing you want to do is disarm innocent people. 




This kind of reasoning is exactly why there is such a problem in the USA.



So you quiet happy then to go to a dangerous country and not arm yourself? Even if its advised? 

Guns actually also save lives. A point that the anti-gun brigade often try to avoid. 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1399090 2-Oct-2015 19:57
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I don't pretend to understand why this happens so often in the USA. What pressure(s) in their society or lack of supports possibly lead to these outpourings of violence?

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  # 1399095 2-Oct-2015 20:07
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DizzyD:
Rikkitic:
DizzyD:
Fred99: 
Per capita, it actually is quite bad.
You're about 5-6 times more likely to be murdered in the US than here, Australia, UK, Canada etc.


And if you lived in a country where the murder rates were really high surely you would want to protect yourself? With a gun? I certainly would. 

What kind of an idiot will go and live in a dangerous place and not arm himself?

This is what people are asking the US citizens to do. They have a right to defend themselves, and that right is not going to go away any time soon. 

We have gun crime here in NZ too but there is a difference. Its rare in NZ for the gunman to actually use the gun and shoot people. Very rare actually. Why? Make the comparison, guns crime in both the US and here. In the US the guns are actually used to shoot people. So therefore the problem is not the gun, the problem is the people. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

If the US wants to solve its gun problems it needs to sort out its people first. The last thing you want to do is disarm innocent people. 




This kind of reasoning is exactly why there is such a problem in the USA.



So you quiet happy then to go to a dangerous country and not arm yourself? Even if its advised? 

Guns actually also save lives. A point that the anti-gun brigade often try to avoid. 



Advised by whom, may I ask?

And what countries do you define as dangerous? I assume you are including the US?

I choose to make up my own mind rather than listen to crackpots like the NRA.

And, really, you wonder why many NZers have issues with the US, given the topic of this thread? Given their political system is broken and corrupt, to the point it's not deserving of the term 'democracy'? Its level of racial discrimination? Its institutionalised and growing wealth inequality? I could go on...

I totally acknowledge it's an amazing place for so many reasons, but seriously it's also one of the most f-ed up countries in the developed world.

If this view makes me anti-American, so be it...

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  # 1399098 2-Oct-2015 20:12
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We have plenty of crackpots here in NZ too -- fortunately they are generally crackpots without guns. 

Gun availability is the difference. 

Heaps of kids die each year in the US playing with mummy and daddys gun too. 




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  # 1399099 2-Oct-2015 20:20
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DizzyD:

So you quiet happy then to go to a dangerous country and not arm yourself? Even if its advised? 

Guns actually also save lives. A point that the anti-gun brigade often try to avoid. 



I find this line of reasoning so distasteful that I am not prepared to discuss it further. Several young people just got executed, for christsake. Just stop for a moment, take a breath, and think about that for awhile. This is not television. Kids died. The lives they would have had have been taken from them. Their parents and friends are in mourning. Just put your gun fantasies away for a moment and dwell on that. Your argument is hackneyed, stupid and obscene.
  




I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1399105 2-Oct-2015 20:40
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DizzyD: What kind of an idiot will go and live in a dangerous place and not arm himself?


An american idiot.

Glad I live on the other side of the globe.

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  # 1399107 2-Oct-2015 20:47
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Rikkitic:
DizzyD:

So you quiet happy then to go to a dangerous country and not arm yourself? Even if its advised? 

Guns actually also save lives. A point that the anti-gun brigade often try to avoid. 



I find this line of reasoning so distasteful that I am not prepared to discuss it further. Several young people just got executed, for christsake. Just stop for a moment, take a breath, and think about that for awhile. This is not television. Kids died. The lives they would have had have been taken from them. Their parents and friends are in mourning. Just put your gun fantasies away for a moment and dwell on that. Your argument is hackneyed, stupid and obscene.
  


And today there have been 50 people murdered in SA. Also by guns.
But hey. Lets avoid that one. I find it very strange that the world can turn a blind eye at all the other stuff, the Syrian refugees, The whole of Syria is torn apart by war. Christians being beheaded in Iran/Libia (kids too). There are many other countries falling apart around the world. People will risk their lives to get into a country like the US. As bad as this incident is. Its hardly comparable, but it gets more attention.

Somebody else said we should not compare ourselves or the US to third world countries. Why not? Do people from thirdworld countries not experience the same levels of pain and suffering as we do? They are people to. But somehow they don't seem to matter! 

Its terrible what has happened. I am not trying to downplay the situation at all. Im just saying that the US is on a much larger scale, yes we lucky in NZ that we dont experience this level of stuff here. But the point Im trying to make is that you cant blame the guns for the killings.  This is another madman.



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  # 1399109 2-Oct-2015 20:56
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NRA: Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

Me: That's why people should not be allowed anywhere near guns.





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1399111 2-Oct-2015 20:58
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DizzyD: Guns actually also save lives. A point that the anti-gun brigade often try to avoid. 



What?! The US death rate from guns per capita is running at around five times higher than other developed countries that run with sane gun laws. Please, explain how the higher number of guns held by US citizens are saving lives compared with, say the UK, Australia and NZ?

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