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  # 1404531 12-Oct-2015 17:22
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MikeB4: Drug testing for employment needs to be done very carefully and the results confirmed by subsequent test as the impact of getting it wrong is big.


This is very true. The employee should get samples at the same time which can be tested independently in the event of the need to contest a positive result.

It should not be possible to dismiss someone on the basis of a single test.







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  # 1404570 12-Oct-2015 18:35
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Probably obvious that I think total reform is needed.
It (prohibition in present form) isn't working.
I don't do (illicit) drugs - though to be honest, I wouldn't mind taking it up a bit later in life. If I'm not physically able to do some of the other things I do now, then listening to some to my favourite music stoned on some high quality Afghani hashish sounds good to me.  I resent that I don't have that choice. 

 
 
 
 


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  # 1404660 12-Oct-2015 21:17
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DizzyD:
Fred99: 

Kids / young folks subject to workplace testing aren't dumb.  They're choosing to take drugs with known half-life / detectability (or lack thereof) in preference to drugs which may be less harmful but easily detected.  Some are very very unsafe.  You can almost certainly blame routine drug testing for the existence of crap like that.




What a classic post. 


I agree. Kids should stick to quality carcinogens, the same as us sensible adults, like cigarettes, alcohol and caffeine









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  # 1404673 12-Oct-2015 21:26
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Fred99: Probably obvious that I think total reform is needed.
It (prohibition in present form) isn't working.
I don't do (illicit) drugs - though to be honest, I wouldn't mind taking it up a bit later in life. If I'm not physically able to do some of the other things I do now, then listening to some to my favourite music stoned on some high quality Afghani hashish sounds good to me.  I resent that I don't have that choice. 


I would not disagree in general - but anyone who has a job that has a drug testing policy and still does drugs is a can short of a sixpack.





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  # 1404674 12-Oct-2015 21:28
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Geektastic:
Fred99: Probably obvious that I think total reform is needed.
It (prohibition in present form) isn't working.
I don't do (illicit) drugs - though to be honest, I wouldn't mind taking it up a bit later in life. If I'm not physically able to do some of the other things I do now, then listening to some to my favourite music stoned on some high quality Afghani hashish sounds good to me.  I resent that I don't have that choice. 


I would not disagree in general - but anyone who has a job that has a drug testing policy and still does drugs is a can short of a sixpack.


That would make thousands of Nzers - anyone driving, having drunk alcohol must be a few cans short of a six pack - so many caught every day in breath tests - ironically mostly not kids- their alcohol conviction rate is falling - its us sensible over 30's folks who pushes the stats up.





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  # 1404694 12-Oct-2015 22:01
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nunz:
Geektastic:
Fred99: Probably obvious that I think total reform is needed.
It (prohibition in present form) isn't working.
I don't do (illicit) drugs - though to be honest, I wouldn't mind taking it up a bit later in life. If I'm not physically able to do some of the other things I do now, then listening to some to my favourite music stoned on some high quality Afghani hashish sounds good to me.  I resent that I don't have that choice. 


I would not disagree in general - but anyone who has a job that has a drug testing policy and still does drugs is a can short of a sixpack.


That would make thousands of Nzers - anyone driving, having drunk alcohol must be a few cans short of a six pack - so many caught every day in breath tests - ironically mostly not kids- their alcohol conviction rate is falling - its us sensible over 30's folks who pushes the stats up.



I quite agree - anyone who drives having consumed alcohol is an idiot.





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  # 1404735 13-Oct-2015 06:39
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Fred99: 
I don't do (illicit) drugs - though to be honest, I wouldn't mind taking it up a bit later in life. If I'm not physically able to do some of the other things I do now, then listening to some to my favourite music stoned on some high quality Afghani hashish sounds good to me.  I resent that I don't have that choice. 


Only crackheads dumb silly people do drugs. 

Hashish is an (illicit) Class B drug. 

Stay away from all drugs. You better off without them. 
Over the years I have witnessed far too many kids/youngsters/adults progress from the odd joint, to full blown class A drugs. None of these people are better off taking them. 

If you concerned about not having a choice when it comes to taking class B drugs, then that's a different issue. I suggest maybe supporting the cannabis party in the next elections. There is a small minority of New Zealanders who think just like you ;-)

 
 
 
 


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  # 1404736 13-Oct-2015 06:43
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nunz:
DizzyD:
Fred99: 

Kids / young folks subject to workplace testing aren't dumb.  They're choosing to take drugs with known half-life / detectability (or lack thereof) in preference to drugs which may be less harmful but easily detected.  Some are very very unsafe.  You can almost certainly blame routine drug testing for the existence of crap like that.




What a classic post. 


I agree. Kids should stick to quality carcinogens, the same as us sensible adults, like cigarettes, alcohol and caffeine



They do already. I know many 15year old kiws kids that sadly do all of the above.

That as well as hardcore drugs. 

We should be working to get them off their addictions, not promoting those and more hardcore addictions.

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  # 1404788 13-Oct-2015 09:03
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And yet we have a prime minister pushing through laws allowing more consumption for sporting events. What type of idiot does that make him if it leads to even 1 drunk driver.




nunz

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  # 1404794 13-Oct-2015 09:11
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Geektastic:
nunz:
Geektastic:
Fred99: Probably obvious that I think total reform is needed.
It (prohibition in present form) isn't working.
I don't do (illicit) drugs - though to be honest, I wouldn't mind taking it up a bit later in life. If I'm not physically able to do some of the other things I do now, then listening to some to my favourite music stoned on some high quality Afghani hashish sounds good to me.  I resent that I don't have that choice. 


I would not disagree in general - but anyone who has a job that has a drug testing policy and still does drugs is a can short of a sixpack.


That would make thousands of Nzers - anyone driving, having drunk alcohol must be a few cans short of a six pack - so many caught every day in breath tests - ironically mostly not kids- their alcohol conviction rate is falling - its us sensible over 30's folks who pushes the stats up.



I quite agree - anyone who drives having consumed alcohol is an idiot.


We have a family rule of zero alcohol and driving. I won't drive if I have taken any medication including panadol.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 




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  # 1404826 13-Oct-2015 10:06
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DizzyD:
nunz:
DizzyD:
Fred99: 

Kids / young folks subject to workplace testing aren't dumb.  They're choosing to take drugs with known half-life / detectability (or lack thereof) in preference to drugs which may be less harmful but easily detected.  Some are very very unsafe.  You can almost certainly blame routine drug testing for the existence of crap like that.




What a classic post. 


I agree. Kids should stick to quality carcinogens, the same as us sensible adults, like cigarettes, alcohol and caffeine



They do already. I know many 15year old kiws kids that sadly do all of the above.

That as well as hardcore drugs

We should be working to get them off their addictions, not promoting those and more hardcore addictions.


Alcohol and tobacco are relatively hardcore drugs:


What we should be doing is working toward overall harm minimisation rather than focusing all efforts on criminalisation / prohibition.
A significant part of that "overall harm" are direct and indirect effects of prohibition.  For example, heroin users don't tend to die from the effects of long-term (ab)use, but from accidental overdose (including combination of drugs), from hepatitis or HIV, from squalid living conditions.  Then there's the secondary crime, from production/distribution through organised syndicates, as well as burglary/theft etc by addicts.  There's even another effect.  Heroin is a very good drug for medical use (palliative care).  Not available for that legitimate use in NZ - due to prohibition. The potential profit is so high, that we can't even trust medical professionals in hospitals to not pilfer medicine from secure facilities.  Totally crazy.
1/2 century (or more) of prohibition has been a futile, counter-productive abject, stinking stupid, irrational, harmful, disastrous failure.
For a while heroin (ab)use seemed to be on the decline.   One of the reasons for that decline was reduced supply due to the efforts of the Taliban wiping out opium production in Afghanistan.  The cat's out of the bag now - production is increasing again there, and illicit production has moved to South America.  There's been a 4 fold increase in heroin overdose deaths in the USA over the past decade, over 8,000 deaths in 2013 from heroin overdose.  It'll probably happen here too...
The first step in stopping it should be targeting production/supply.  That's very simple to achieve - by eliminating profit in the supply chain - instead of continuing to achieve the reverse.
'If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got.'

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  # 1404835 13-Oct-2015 10:29
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nunz: And yet we have a prime minister pushing through laws allowing more consumption for sporting events. What type of idiot does that make him if it leads to even 1 drunk driver.


Nothing wrong with this.

New Zealands drinking problem is not about the availability of alcohol. Its a culture problem.

You make out that the problem with our drinking culture is the PM's fault? Where is the logic in that? Its not illegal to drink in NZ, and its not even illegal to have a drink or two and drive. There is nothing wrong with it when its done in moderation. There are many people (myself included) who appreciate a good beer or two, or three at sporting events. Why should I be penalized and not be able to have a few drinks simply because some people don't know when to stop, and cause chaos. Sort out the cultural problem and there will be no need to stop distribution. 



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  # 1404839 13-Oct-2015 10:37
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DizzyD:
nunz: And yet we have a prime minister pushing through laws allowing more consumption for sporting events. What type of idiot does that make him if it leads to even 1 drunk driver.


Nothing wrong with this.

New Zealands drinking problem is not about the availability of alcohol. Its a culture problem.

You make out that the problem with our drinking culture is the PM's fault? Where is the logic in that? Its not illegal to drink in NZ, and its not even illegal to have a drink or two and drive. There is nothing wrong with it when its done in moderation. There are many people (myself included) who appreciate a good beer or two, or three at sporting events. Why should I be penalized and not be able to have a few drinks simply because some people don't know when to stop, and cause chaos. Sort out the cultural problem and there will be no need to stop distribution. 




I don't see why it is necessary to drink alcohol at every function or sports event.  As for a drinking and driving that is pure crazy and without justification.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 




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  # 1404842 13-Oct-2015 10:39
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DizzyD: 

New Zealands drinking problem is not about the availability of alcohol. Its a culture problem.



ROFL.  Exactly the same logic would apply to every illicit drug if they were all made legal and as freely available as alcohol.
So I'm glad to see that you're starting to agree with me.

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  # 1404845 13-Oct-2015 10:43
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Fred99: 

Alcohol and tobacco are relatively hardcore drugs:


No. Thats not how they are defined in New Zealand. And for good reason. 

Think of it this way, you are an employer. You have employees, some of them smoke, many of them drink. You allow drinking in moderation as most companies do. (Friday drinks, the odd lunchtime drink).

I often go for lunch, and sometimes I will have a beer. Then I go back to work. When I use to smoke, I use to smoke during work hours, I could return to my job and carry on where I left off. Smoking/drinking (in moderation) has 0 impact on my work output. Nothing!!! 

Unfortunately I cannot say the same for those other "drugs" in your chart. 

Smoke some grass during lunchtime and then go drive that train or operate that digger in the school yard. Would you let somebody do this when they are drunk? Sure this can be done in moderation too, but being stoned on the job will always be a problem, legal or not. Drugtests for businesses are therefore here to stay. 

These things are banned for a reason. Economically they just cannot fit into a professional workplace. Employees/companies (that pay salaries) wont allow it. I certainly would never want any of my employees smoking grass or meths while I am emplying them. 

Somebody else mentioned coffee is a drug? Well maybe its addictive, but I can drink probably 4 cups in the morning and still do my job well. 



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