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523 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1404846 13-Oct-2015 10:48
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Fred99:
DizzyD: 

New Zealands drinking problem is not about the availability of alcohol. Its a culture problem.



ROFL.  Exactly the same logic would apply to every illicit drug if they were all made legal and as freely available as alcohol.
So I'm glad to see that you're starting to agree with me.


There is nothing wrong with drinking in moderation. Thats my point. You can't do drugs in moderation, and still focus/perform well at work. 

Alcohol is not even banned in NZ and we have a problem. Why go legalize other substances that will have the same affect on our society as alcohol? Thats just opening the floodgates to the abuse of other substances too. 


523 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1404851 13-Oct-2015 10:56
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Fred99:

Alcohol and tobacco are relatively hardcore drugs:


What we should be doing is working toward overall harm minimisation rather than focusing all efforts on criminalisation / prohibition.
A significant part of that "overall harm" are direct and indirect effects of prohibition.  For example, heroin users don't tend to die from the effects of long-term (ab)use, but from accidental overdose (including combination of drugs), from hepatitis or HIV, from squalid living conditions.  Then there's the secondary crime, from production/distribution through organised syndicates, as well as burglary/theft etc by addicts.  There's even another effect.  Heroin is a very good drug for medical use (palliative care).  Not available for that legitimate use in NZ - due to prohibition. The potential profit is so high, that we can't even trust medical professionals in hospitals to not pilfer medicine from secure facilities.  Totally crazy.
1/2 century (or more) of prohibition has been a futile, counter-productive abject, stinking stupid, irrational, harmful, disastrous failure.
For a while heroin (ab)use seemed to be on the decline.   One of the reasons for that decline was reduced supply due to the efforts of the Taliban wiping out opium production in Afghanistan.  The cat's out of the bag now - production is increasing again there, and illicit production has moved to South America.  There's been a 4 fold increase in heroin overdose deaths in the USA over the past decade, over 8,000 deaths in 2013 from heroin overdose.  It'll probably happen here too...
The first step in stopping it should be targeting production/supply.  That's very simple to achieve - by eliminating profit in the supply chain - instead of continuing to achieve the reverse.
'If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got.'


Have some links to back up all of these goofy claims of yours?
How about that chart? whats its point of reference?

 
 
 
 




8905 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1404854 13-Oct-2015 10:58
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DizzyD:
Fred99: 

Alcohol and tobacco are relatively hardcore drugs:


No. Thats not how they are defined in New Zealand. And for good reason. 



No - the "reason" is simply historic/cultural acceptance.
I't's absurd to ague about the "legality" of say marijuana vs alcohol and include discussion about impairment, OSH regulations etc.
Heavy (but legal) alcohol (ab)use causes permanent harm, including but not limited to cognitive effects.

You reject my argument about the "drug choice substitution" which I know for a fact does happen (kids are dropping acid rather than smoking a joint, because with the former, they know that there's low chance of it being detected). 

523 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user


  # 1404871 13-Oct-2015 11:06
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Fred99:
DizzyD:
Fred99: 

Alcohol and tobacco are relatively hardcore drugs:


No. Thats not how they are defined in New Zealand. And for good reason. 



No - the "reason" is simply historic/cultural acceptance.
I't's absurd to ague about the "legality" of say marijuana vs alcohol and include discussion about impairment, OSH regulations etc.
Heavy (but legal) alcohol (ab)use causes permanent harm, including but not limited to cognitive effects.

You reject my argument about the "drug choice substitution" which I know for a fact does happen (kids are dropping acid rather than smoking a joint, because with the former, they know that there's low chance of it being detected). 


Not my kids. 
That sounds more like a bad parenting problem to me. 

You talk again about detection. Detection will always be there because drugs just like alcohol can cause havoc in workplaces/schools etc. Making these things legal will not change that. Drug testing will always be part of our society, just like alcohol testing. Its here to stay. You seem to have this fantasy that legalizing marijuana will stop all marijuana drug tests.

Again, you say for a fact does happen. I disagree so please post some backup to all of these goofy claims of yours.



8905 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1404882 13-Oct-2015 11:20
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DizzyD:
Fred99:

Alcohol and tobacco are relatively hardcore drugs:


What we should be doing is working toward overall harm minimisation rather than focusing all efforts on criminalisation / prohibition.
A significant part of that "overall harm" are direct and indirect effects of prohibition.  For example, heroin users don't tend to die from the effects of long-term (ab)use, but from accidental overdose (including combination of drugs), from hepatitis or HIV, from squalid living conditions.  Then there's the secondary crime, from production/distribution through organised syndicates, as well as burglary/theft etc by addicts.  There's even another effect.  Heroin is a very good drug for medical use (palliative care).  Not available for that legitimate use in NZ - due to prohibition. The potential profit is so high, that we can't even trust medical professionals in hospitals to not pilfer medicine from secure facilities.  Totally crazy.
1/2 century (or more) of prohibition has been a futile, counter-productive abject, stinking stupid, irrational, harmful, disastrous failure.
For a while heroin (ab)use seemed to be on the decline.   One of the reasons for that decline was reduced supply due to the efforts of the Taliban wiping out opium production in Afghanistan.  The cat's out of the bag now - production is increasing again there, and illicit production has moved to South America.  There's been a 4 fold increase in heroin overdose deaths in the USA over the past decade, over 8,000 deaths in 2013 from heroin overdose.  It'll probably happen here too...
The first step in stopping it should be targeting production/supply.  That's very simple to achieve - by eliminating profit in the supply chain - instead of continuing to achieve the reverse.
'If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got.'


Have some links to back up all of these goofy claims of yours?
How about that chart? whats its point of reference?


Again you sink to abuse when you're losing an argument.

It's not my "goofy" claim.

The chart was published in The Lancet.  Data was based on input from many medical experts as well as police and legal experts.  It's well accepted.

Heroin is used for palliative care in other countries.  It remains the best pain relief drug for end of life palliative care - it's a better drug than morphine.  Obviously your medical knowledge is very limited, which may also explain your lack of understanding about cause of death with heroin users.

The uselessness of prohibition as has been implemented needs no further explanation.  It hasn't worked.

The Taliban under Mullah Mohammed Omar declared opium production "un-islamic" and effectively wiped out production for a few years.  You can google the circumstances of that -and the rest.

Please don't come back with 1001 more questions and uneducated statements when you've got a computer and access to google.  I also don't have the time to be bothered referencing every fact I present in order to refute your uninformed criticism.


914 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1404884 13-Oct-2015 11:21
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DizzyD:
Fred99:
DizzyD:
Fred99: 

Alcohol and tobacco are relatively hardcore drugs:


No. Thats not how they are defined in New Zealand. And for good reason. 



No - the "reason" is simply historic/cultural acceptance.
I't's absurd to ague about the "legality" of say marijuana vs alcohol and include discussion about impairment, OSH regulations etc.
Heavy (but legal) alcohol (ab)use causes permanent harm, including but not limited to cognitive effects.

You reject my argument about the "drug choice substitution" which I know for a fact does happen (kids are dropping acid rather than smoking a joint, because with the former, they know that there's low chance of it being detected). 


Not my kids. 
That sounds more like a bad parenting problem to me. 



No never my kids

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/72934222/father-shocked-by-sons-nbomb-drug-use




8905 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1404886 13-Oct-2015 11:22
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DizzyD: 

Not my kids. 


Those very words get used too frequently in hospital EDs and morgues.

 
 
 
 


Minimalist
5596 posts

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  # 1404889 13-Oct-2015 11:26
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Ok this is done. Locked.

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