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  Reply # 1409036 19-Oct-2015 09:34
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joker97:
Rikkitic:
joker97:
Rikkitic: Apologies for duplicating this topic. I searched first but missed this thread. 

My point was, if this does actually turn out to be alien, The builders of those structures, who were clearly far ahead of us 1500 years ago, have had 1500 years to get even farther ahead of us, not to mention 1500 years to come here. Should we be worried?



1500 light years is not 1500 years; the former a measure of distance, the latter a measure of time

edit: apologies i see what you mean ... no they can't get here in 1500 years. unless they travel at the speed of light ....


I figure anyone who can run rings around their star can probably figure out how to travel at lightspeed. Or maybe they can go faster but took some breaks along the way. Or maybe they can't, and will arrive here the day after tomorrow instead of yesterday. The precise time frame isn't that important. The question, if one accepts the assumption that there is a 'they', is what will they do when they get here.



I think someone's given the answer already.

But no, why come all the way here, there are infinite other destinations to visit, including nearer solar systems.


I struggle to see why any alien intelligence capable of achieving it might need to harness the energy of a star.  Except for one reason - to accelerate a spacecraft to near light-speed by pushing it - to avoid the problem of having to overcome the inertia of the fuel load of a self-propelled craft.  Of course you'd need to harness another star in line with your destination in order to slow down again.  Perhaps we'd better look to see if there's another ring-world star in line with earth in the opposite direction.  They might already be on the way - and be here sooner than we expect.

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  Reply # 1409098 19-Oct-2015 11:15
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Fred99:
joker97:
Rikkitic:
joker97:
Rikkitic: Apologies for duplicating this topic. I searched first but missed this thread. 

My point was, if this does actually turn out to be alien, The builders of those structures, who were clearly far ahead of us 1500 years ago, have had 1500 years to get even farther ahead of us, not to mention 1500 years to come here. Should we be worried?



1500 light years is not 1500 years; the former a measure of distance, the latter a measure of time

edit: apologies i see what you mean ... no they can't get here in 1500 years. unless they travel at the speed of light ....


I figure anyone who can run rings around their star can probably figure out how to travel at lightspeed. Or maybe they can go faster but took some breaks along the way. Or maybe they can't, and will arrive here the day after tomorrow instead of yesterday. The precise time frame isn't that important. The question, if one accepts the assumption that there is a 'they', is what will they do when they get here.



I think someone's given the answer already.

But no, why come all the way here, there are infinite other destinations to visit, including nearer solar systems.


I struggle to see why any alien intelligence capable of achieving it might need to harness the energy of a star.  Except for one reason - to accelerate a spacecraft to near light-speed by pushing it - to avoid the problem of having to overcome the inertia of the fuel load of a self-propelled craft.  Of course you'd need to harness another star in line with your destination in order to slow down again.  Perhaps we'd better look to see if there's another ring-world star in line with earth in the opposite direction.  They might already be on the way - and be here sooner than we expect.


They don't need to accelerate anything. They just need to fold space.

Remember, the spice must flow!

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1409115 19-Oct-2015 11:35
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Fred99:
joker97:
Rikkitic:
joker97:
Rikkitic: Apologies for duplicating this topic. I searched first but missed this thread. 

My point was, if this does actually turn out to be alien, The builders of those structures, who were clearly far ahead of us 1500 years ago, have had 1500 years to get even farther ahead of us, not to mention 1500 years to come here. Should we be worried?



1500 light years is not 1500 years; the former a measure of distance, the latter a measure of time

edit: apologies i see what you mean ... no they can't get here in 1500 years. unless they travel at the speed of light ....


I figure anyone who can run rings around their star can probably figure out how to travel at lightspeed. Or maybe they can go faster but took some breaks along the way. Or maybe they can't, and will arrive here the day after tomorrow instead of yesterday. The precise time frame isn't that important. The question, if one accepts the assumption that there is a 'they', is what will they do when they get here.



I think someone's given the answer already.

But no, why come all the way here, there are infinite other destinations to visit, including nearer solar systems.


I struggle to see why any alien intelligence capable of achieving it might need to harness the energy of a star.  Except for one reason - to accelerate a spacecraft to near light-speed by pushing it - to avoid the problem of having to overcome the inertia of the fuel load of a self-propelled craft.  Of course you'd need to harness another star in line with your destination in order to slow down again.  Perhaps we'd better look to see if there's another ring-world star in line with earth in the opposite direction.  They might already be on the way - and be here sooner than we expect.


Thing is, if you travel at light speed (theoretically it's not possible to go faster), funny things happen to the space-time continuum and you can go backwards in time. However, if someone amongst us have that ability the world would not be as you know it. Eg, they can predict Lotto scores, etc and will be easily identified. Of course, they could try to be smart and keep it a secret, but that's not possible, as you would think the cover would be easily blown on something like that. Unless you keep killing whoever blows your secret.

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  Reply # 1409117 19-Oct-2015 11:37
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WolfmanNZ:
Fred99:
joker97:
Rikkitic:
joker97:
Rikkitic: Apologies for duplicating this topic. I searched first but missed this thread. 

My point was, if this does actually turn out to be alien, The builders of those structures, who were clearly far ahead of us 1500 years ago, have had 1500 years to get even farther ahead of us, not to mention 1500 years to come here. Should we be worried?



1500 light years is not 1500 years; the former a measure of distance, the latter a measure of time

edit: apologies i see what you mean ... no they can't get here in 1500 years. unless they travel at the speed of light ....


I figure anyone who can run rings around their star can probably figure out how to travel at lightspeed. Or maybe they can go faster but took some breaks along the way. Or maybe they can't, and will arrive here the day after tomorrow instead of yesterday. The precise time frame isn't that important. The question, if one accepts the assumption that there is a 'they', is what will they do when they get here.



I think someone's given the answer already.

But no, why come all the way here, there are infinite other destinations to visit, including nearer solar systems.


I struggle to see why any alien intelligence capable of achieving it might need to harness the energy of a star.  Except for one reason - to accelerate a spacecraft to near light-speed by pushing it - to avoid the problem of having to overcome the inertia of the fuel load of a self-propelled craft.  Of course you'd need to harness another star in line with your destination in order to slow down again.  Perhaps we'd better look to see if there's another ring-world star in line with earth in the opposite direction.  They might already be on the way - and be here sooner than we expect.


They don't need to accelerate anything. They just need to fold space.

Remember, the spice must flow!


Don't need to, they are already folded nicely for you.

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  Reply # 1409168 19-Oct-2015 12:50
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I am not a scientist or engineer and my grasp of even elementary mathematics is terrible but I enjoy popular science documentaries and I have heard from more than one source that the early expansion of the Universe exceeded the speed of light and that entangled particles sense each other's state instantaneously regardless of distance. If these things are indeed true, then the speed of light barrier can hardly be absolute.

Apart from that, logic suggests that there are only a few possibilities in regard to intelligent life in the Universe: One is that it is everywhere; another is that it is extremely rare. In the latter case, a remote advanced civilisation that became aware of us would almost certainly want to come here, out of simple curiosity if nothing else. It is what we would do.

So what happens when they arrive? That was my question.
 




I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1409189 19-Oct-2015 13:15
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Rikkitic: I am not a scientist or engineer and my grasp of even elementary mathematics is terrible but I enjoy popular science documentaries and I have heard from more than one source that the early expansion of the Universe exceeded the speed of light and that entangled particles sense each other's state instantaneously regardless of distance. If these things are indeed true, then the speed of light barrier can hardly be absolute.

Apart from that, logic suggests that there are only a few possibilities in regard to intelligent life in the Universe: One is that it is everywhere; another is that it is extremely rare. In the latter case, a remote advanced civilisation that became aware of us would almost certainly want to come here, out of simple curiosity if nothing else. It is what we would do.

So what happens when they arrive? That was my question.
 


Apparently space expanded faster than the speed of light but matter didn't move. Anyway, when they arrive nothing will happen. Because something that is curious enough to explore won't explore alone, but in collaboration, so a whole army of them will travel. There are no wormholes near earth (otherwise people will be travelling like Thor) so you will see them coming from a billion miles away.

Unless you can't see them. Just because you breathe oxygen and eat nitrogen it doesn't mean others do the same.
Just because light is light here and light speed is light speed here does not mean these laws are constant across universes.
Existence of matter is not understood - if you break particles down to their basic quarks, they don't exist. Because in quantum mechanics, Everything is within its "field". No one knows where the electron ever is in its electron field. Apparently other "dimensions" are needed to explain how matter can actually exist (which they haven't found). So if your alien friend's matter is in a different dimension you probably can't see it. Could "feel" it, but may not see it.

Sorry not explaining it well, maybe ask me after my PhD lol

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  Reply # 1409208 19-Oct-2015 13:38
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joker97:

Thing is, if you travel at light speed (theoretically it's not possible to go faster), funny things happen to the space-time continuum and you can go backwards in time. However, if someone amongst us have that ability the world would not be as you know it. Eg, they can predict Lotto scores, etc and will be easily identified. Of course, they could try to be smart and keep it a secret, but that's not possible, as you would think the cover would be easily blown on something like that. Unless you keep killing whoever blows your secret.


Other way around. Travel slower than light is possible, Travel faster than light is possible (ok you will be going back in time) but travel at the speed of light is not possible because it will take infinite energy.

so to go from travelling slower to going faster you need to find a way of "Jumping" (or of course form a warp bubble that will require you to harness the energy of almost an entire star.... OMG)





Matthew


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  Reply # 1409213 19-Oct-2015 13:43
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Rikkitic: I am not a scientist or engineer and my grasp of even elementary mathematics is terrible but I enjoy popular science documentaries and I have heard from more than one source that the early expansion of the Universe exceeded the speed of light and that entangled particles sense each other's state instantaneously regardless of distance. If these things are indeed true, then the speed of light barrier can hardly be absolute.
 


About "inflation": http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2015/10/13/the-universe-never-expands-faster-than-the-speed-of-light/

As for faster than light communication/transport etc, then even if it couldn't be rejected because of causality / arrow of time conflicts with what appear to be properties of the universe, some of the theories have the problem that even if they "worked", then no information can be communicated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superluminal_communication

Rikkitic:
Apart from that, logic suggests that there are only a few possibilities in regard to intelligent life in the Universe: One is that it is everywhere; another is that it is extremely rare. In the latter case, a remote advanced civilisation that became aware of us would almost certainly want to come here, out of simple curiosity if nothing else. It is what we would do.

So what happens when they arrive? That was my question.
 


I believe that Hawking and others have issued warnings about us deliberately sending signals out into space with the hope of disclosing our existence to aliens.  I'm on their side, the first reason being that as we're only just capable of doing such a thing, chances are those who are looking and listening and capable of getting here would be far more advanced - and it wouldn't end well for us.  Second reason I'd give is analogous to a pretty girl in a bar - who'd like to make contact with others.  If she put up a sign saying "I'm here and want to talk", then she's at far more risk than if she initiates contact with a stranger of her choice. They might not want to talk but might want something else.  And there's a problem - perhaps if aliens look at that risk in advertising themselves in that way - then many of the alien civilisations which may exist maintain "radio silence" apart from that brief period from when they first start to use radio signals to communicate terrestrially, to when they work out that there's a big risk if somebody is listening.

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  Reply # 1409335 19-Oct-2015 16:08
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My first introduction to parallel universes was C. S. Lewis - The Magician's Nephew and Sam Kieth - The Maxx (#31 I think)

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  Reply # 1409337 19-Oct-2015 16:22
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mdooher:
joker97:

Thing is, if you travel at light speed (theoretically it's not possible to go faster), funny things happen to the space-time continuum and you can go backwards in time. However, if someone amongst us have that ability the world would not be as you know it. Eg, they can predict Lotto scores, etc and will be easily identified. Of course, they could try to be smart and keep it a secret, but that's not possible, as you would think the cover would be easily blown on something like that. Unless you keep killing whoever blows your secret.


Other way around. Travel slower than light is possible, Travel faster than light is possible (ok you will be going back in time) but travel at the speed of light is not possible because it will take infinite energy.

so to go from travelling slower to going faster you need to find a way of "Jumping" (or of course form a warp bubble that will require you to harness the energy of almost an entire star.... OMG)



Just some quick dirty calculations on a return trip to ring-world (1500 light years each way).
Just say we could make a space ship capable of getting there at a speed where time-dilation made a return trip within say 30 years elapsed on board possible, then:
You'd need to travel at  0.99995 x the speed of light.
If you could only get up to 0.99776 x the speed of light, the trip would take 100 years each way
To make it in a year elapsed on board each way, then at 0.999999 x speed of light, and allowing for relativistic effects, then hitting a tiny lump of something in the way - weighing only 0.1g - the impact energy would be roughly the same as being hit by a 150 tonne locomotive travelling at 1000km/h. 
If we could only get to 90% of the speed of light, then it's going to take 653 years each way.
(These exclude time taken to accelerate/decelerate, so add a couple of years)

Better hope for worm holes etc for inter-stellar travel (or hope not - if they're coming here to eat us or whatever).

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  Reply # 1409344 19-Oct-2015 16:30
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I always liked instantaneous travel - like Ender's Game where they stole the knowledge of the invisible interconnected cables that connect all living things from the aliens who tried to exterminate us (because of not realising that we are self aware.) And Event Horizon where Sam Neill designed a ship that creates a black hole and uses it to fold space time to step through from one point in space/time to another, but that fails because there is something on the other side in between the two points (Hell)

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gzt

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  Reply # 1436502 28-Nov-2015 01:50
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NASA says comets:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/27/nasa_pours_cold_comets_on_aliensmakestarflutter_theory/

But then they would wouldn't they ; ).

No word on the radio telescopes yet.

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  Reply # 1437937 30-Nov-2015 16:11
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gzt: NASA says comets:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/27/nasa_pours_cold_comets_on_aliensmakestarflutter_theory/

But then they would wouldn't they ; ).

No word on the radio telescopes yet.

 



 

If we could distort space-time as efficiently as the register and the rest of the media have distorted the facts then we could drop by the Dyson star on the way to the dairy.

 



 

Why do I say that?

 



 

The story as run by the media goes thus:

 



 

Nasa did some tests.

 

It's comets.

 

No Dyson swarm.

 

Sorry all you Mega-structure fan boys. You lost.

 


 

The facts:

 



 

Nasa did some tests.

 

They measured the IR flux from the Dyson system.

 

It is not abnormal.

 

That eliminates gas clouds as a possible cause of the light signal dipping.

 

It also eliminates the debris of a planet smashing collision as a possible cause.

 

Comets are the only natural explanation that has not been eliminated.

 

The new data from NASA says nothing for or against the possibility of a mega structure.

 

There is no new data that makes comets look like the cause, it is just that other mechanisms have been ruled out.

 

The original research paper noted that comets were a possibility but if so they appeared to be flying in formation.

 


 

So, other than eliminating two possible natural causes of the light occlusion nothing has changed.

 



 

There is some other data available. It seems that the Dyson aliens may celebrate Halloween!

 



 

Well, to be a little more serious, the American Association of Variable Star Observers has had eyeballs on the star since the middle of October. Looking at their raw data, it seems as though there was another event at the end of October.

 



 

Regarding the radio telescopes, SETI reported weeks ago.

 



 

They found nothing but their radio telescope array would only have been capable of picking up a directional beam aimed at us and using a power level somewhat greater than the total electricity generation of our entire planet today.

 



 

I think that we are going to need a bigger telescope.

 


 


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  Reply # 1474774 19-Jan-2016 17:38
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There is another development here.

 

A study of photographs of the star going back to the late nineteenth century indicates that, as seen from Earth, the star is steadily dimming at around 20% per hundred years.

 

Stars like that do not do that by themselves.

 

There are no current hypotheses for natural events that can be responsible.

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28786-comets-cant-explain-weird-alien-megastructure-star-after-all/

 

 

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