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  # 1416067 29-Oct-2015 12:23
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itxtme:
tdgeek:
Rikkitic:
itxtme: Alcohol usage in NZ is harmful, and becoming increasingly so.  The social cost using a WHO model put that cost at 4.9 billion for 05/06.  1/3 of police arrests involve alcohol. 1/2 of serious violent crimes are related to alcohol.   

There is internationally proven correlation between alcohol access and all of these things increasing.

The vast majority of NZers can drink safely, but the impact as stated above means that a significant number do not.  When one assess how to combat such problems they look at models that are proven to be successful.  The most cost effective measure is to reduce access (time & geographical, & cost).

That doesnt sit well with a lot of people because like we accepted above the vast majority of people can drink safely.  However the law makers must decide how can we reduce those issues, and still keep power.  

So should Wendys get a licence?

No, this does the opposite of what needs to be done.  But I would say that - I work with the effects of over consumption on a daily basis for a living.




I would not argue with any of this, but I do wonder what happens when aggressive, instant gratification alcohol-dependent types cannot get a drink when they want one. Do they just decide to have a cup of tea instead? 



They go to liquor stores. They are open late in the weekends, if they are that dependent they will shoot down there to get their stocks when they get low.  They can go to supermarkets till around 10pm. Would they go to Wendys and spend the same on 2.5 bottles when they can get a 12 box elsewhere?  Storm in a teacup.


You are missing the point, we should be reducing the three not increasing them.  Reduce (or increase as the cost one goes) any or preferably all 3 and the harm caused by alcohol does go down.

Like I said several times, not popular with the vast majority of NZers that are responsible drinkers. But undeniably, and repeatedly proven the most effective way to reduce alcohol consumption in a cost effective manor.  4 billion dollars is a lot of money..


I would not argue with any of this, but I do wonder what happens when aggressive, instant gratification alcohol-dependent types cannot get a drink when they want one. Do they just decide to have a cup of tea instead? 


It depends on the extreme of their behaviour, the worst cases abuse alternative alcohol products (mouthwashes, hand sanitisers, meths).  This does not take away from the fact that as access decreases the abuse of it decreases.  We would see decreases in all areas of harm by increasing cost by 20% and reducing access to buy alcohol to say 9pm.  Again, not popular, Its a balancing act.



No. I'm not, you are in fact as you are using this topic  (Wendys) to push another topic (NZ alcohol culture)

Does this alcohol culture come from Cobb and Co,? Nate's bar? The small indian restaurant, or the larger restaurant? No

It comes from other non eating place outlets, and the coolness of drinking that is the peer pressure the young ones have. I fully agree with your issues over our drinking culture, but your in the wrong place to combat that, because in this place (eating paces) there is no issue

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  # 1416084 29-Oct-2015 12:52
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Does this alcohol culture come from Cobb and Co,? Nate's bar? The small indian restaurant, or the larger restaurant? No


I thought for a second that you were with me.  But then you said "No".  When in fact you should have said "Yes".  Like I have said in every post I have made in this topic, these options are not popular.  But nonetheless reducing liquor licence numbers at all of those places does lead to a reduction in alcohol abuse.  Thats just an indisputable fact - feel free to disprove it with any sort of evidence you have .  The topic is about Wendys, I clearly stated that my opinion is they should not, as this is the opposite of reducing opportunities to purchase alcohol, so this is very much on topic.  

More over the extra "fluff" I have included is the justification of my opinion.  For the record I am saying, no, fast food outlets shouldn't be granted liquor licences, and yes we should be decreasing the number of these licences.  And yes tax should increase and yes we should reduce the time you can purchase alcohol at.  Personal opinion, I know.

 

PS the alcohol reform bill, and how it was watered down in 2010 makes for fantastic reading.

 
 
 
 


Lock him up!
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  # 1416089 29-Oct-2015 13:05
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I think it has to do with the normalisation of alcohol consumption. Kid sees dad have a beer with dinner, kid downs a bottle of vodka. I still don't understand why it is such a problem here.





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1416092 29-Oct-2015 13:08
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I'm really not and we are actually in agreement, although one of us clearly has comprehension issues (I'm hoping it's not mewink).

I favour food premises being able to serve alcohol, the more the merrier.  In another post I have said we take our kids to restaurants where people drink, and believe it's an appropriate behaviour for them to see.

I'm simply suggesting it doesn't necessarily follow that a licensed burger bar would be full of drunks. 

I actually don't buy into the hysteria that NZ as a whole has a problematic drinking culture.

I observe sensible drinking to be the prevalent drinking culture in NZ and I have no issue with it.

Binge drinking is a problematic and very visible, media-publicised behaviour.  But it's a behaviour that a small proportion of the population engage in and one which most people outgrow. 







tdgeek:

...  you are in fact as you are using this topic  (Wendys) to push another topic (NZ alcohol culture)

Does this alcohol culture come from Cobb and Co,? Nate's bar? The small indian restaurant, or the larger restaurant? No

It comes from other non eating place outlets, and the coolness of drinking that is the peer pressure the young ones have. I fully agree with your issues over our drinking culture, but your in the wrong place to combat that, because in this place (eating paces) there is no issue




Mike

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  # 1416093 29-Oct-2015 13:12
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itxtme: For the record I am saying, no, fast food outlets shouldn't be granted liquor licences, and yes we should be decreasing the number of these licences.  And yes tax should increase and yes we should reduce the time you can purchase alcohol at.  Personal opinion, I know. PS the alcohol reform bill, and how it was watered down in 2010 makes for fantastic reading.


Why fast food? Whats the difference between fast food restaurant and other restaurant? On what ground are you basing your judgement on fast food? Restaurants already get licences, they sell take away etc. if you are against that then you should be lobbying to have alcohol removed from all restaurants (A separate discussion maybe)

I still have not seen a single argument as to why this should not happen. All arguments point to alcohol abuse, intoxication etc. Which as already highlighted does not happen in licence restaurants. 





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  # 1416097 29-Oct-2015 13:18
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Rikkitic: I think it has to do with the normalisation of alcohol consumption. Kid sees dad have a beer with dinner, kid downs a bottle of vodka. I still don't understand why it is such a problem here.



Or the reverse effect, Dad hates alcohol, he tells his kids how bad it is and never to have or try it. Kid trys it anyway, and enjoys it. Kid wonders what dads problem was but continues drinking and starts binge drinking behind dads back. 

Instead, the kid would have been far wiser if Dad drank responsibly, and kid learnt from dad. Rather teach a kid how to enjoy a beer, and how to drink responsibly. 

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  # 1416102 29-Oct-2015 13:25
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itxtme:
Does this alcohol culture come from Cobb and Co,? Nate's bar? The small indian restaurant, or the larger restaurant? No


I thought for a second that you were with me.  But then you said "No".  When in fact you should have said "Yes".  Like I have said in every post I have made in this topic, these options are not popular.  But nonetheless reducing liquor licence numbers at all of those places does lead to a reduction in alcohol abuse.  Thats just an indisputable fact - feel free to disprove it with any sort of evidence you have .  The topic is about Wendys, I clearly stated that my opinion is they should not, as this is the opposite of reducing opportunities to purchase alcohol, so this is very much on topic.  

More over the extra "fluff" I have included is the justification of my opinion.  For the record I am saying, no, fast food outlets shouldn't be granted liquor licences, and yes we should be decreasing the number of these licences.  And yes tax should increase and yes we should reduce the time you can purchase alcohol at.  Personal opinion, I know. PS the alcohol reform bill, and how it was watered down in 2010 makes for fantastic reading.


So reducing the locations that sensible people have a social drink at that don't have disorderly and abusive behaviour will help the booze culture and drunks? Ok, agree to disagree. Thats like dismantling roads so that there are no car accidents. I'd favour targeting the bad drivers, not the roads or the other sensible drivers

I agree there is an alcohol issue, but it appears that you loathe alcohol? Thats ok, but it does come across as biased. IMHO 

 
 
 
 


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  # 1416104 29-Oct-2015 13:28
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Rikkitic: I think it has to do with the normalisation of alcohol consumption. Kid sees dad have a beer with dinner, kid downs a bottle of vodka. I still don't understand why it is such a problem here.



That sounds like its an endemic issue here. Kid sees Dad have a beer and he downs a bottle of vodka?? LOL

There is an issue, does it affect 90% of kids, I severely doubt it. Thats how some of these posts come across.


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  # 1416106 29-Oct-2015 13:30
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I drink single malts neat and I couldn't "down a bottle of vodka".  My mouth hurts thinking about it. 

The kid that did "down bottle of vodka" might equally "down a bottle of" draino because it's orange like fanta.

Arguably draino tastes better than cheap vodka.
 

Rikkitic: I think it has to do with the normalisation of alcohol consumption. Kid sees dad have a beer with dinner, kid downs a bottle of vodka. I still don't understand why it is such a problem here.




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  # 1416112 29-Oct-2015 13:39
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Just as a general comment, you (being the public) are probably better off targeting and reducing the number of off-licences, especially in the areas such as South Auckland (my hometown of Manurewa is pretty bad).

In my mind more damage is done by the off-licences (yes, incredibly biased as I'm an on-licence only) as alcohol tends to be cheaper and there's not the level of supervision required that on-licences have to go for.

Going out to see mates in Manurewa a few weeks back and my better half mentioned we'd forgotten a bottle of wine to take for dinner.  Not a problem I said as I knew there were at least a dozen places near their house we could visit... and sadly I was right.

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  # 1416116 29-Oct-2015 13:48
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tdgeek:
Rikkitic: I think it has to do with the normalisation of alcohol consumption. Kid sees dad have a beer with dinner, kid downs a bottle of vodka. I still don't understand why it is such a problem here.



That sounds like its an endemic issue here. Kid sees Dad have a beer and he downs a bottle of vodka?? LOL

There is an issue, does it affect 90% of kids, I severely doubt it. Thats how some of these posts come across.



It only takes 10% to create an enormous problem for the other 90%, who have to clean up the mess. I am neither pro nor anti, just still wondering why it is such a problem here, and not some other places.





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1416118 29-Oct-2015 13:53
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Rikkitic: 

It only takes 10% to create an enormous problem for the other 90%, who have to clean up the mess. I am neither pro nor anti, just still wondering why it is such a problem here, and not some other places.



I think the legal drinking age is part of the problem. We don't have one. Anybody can drink, at any age, with parent consent. 







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  # 1416120 29-Oct-2015 13:54
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tdgeek:
itxtme:
Does this alcohol culture come from Cobb and Co,? Nate's bar? The small indian restaurant, or the larger restaurant? No


I thought for a second that you were with me.  But then you said "No".  When in fact you should have said "Yes".  Like I have said in every post I have made in this topic, these options are not popular.  But nonetheless reducing liquor licence numbers at all of those places does lead to a reduction in alcohol abuse.  Thats just an indisputable fact - feel free to disprove it with any sort of evidence you have .  The topic is about Wendys, I clearly stated that my opinion is they should not, as this is the opposite of reducing opportunities to purchase alcohol, so this is very much on topic.  

More over the extra "fluff" I have included is the justification of my opinion.  For the record I am saying, no, fast food outlets shouldn't be granted liquor licences, and yes we should be decreasing the number of these licences.  And yes tax should increase and yes we should reduce the time you can purchase alcohol at.  Personal opinion, I know. PS the alcohol reform bill, and how it was watered down in 2010 makes for fantastic reading.


So reducing the locations that sensible people have a social drink at that don't have disorderly and abusive behaviour will help the booze culture and drunks? Ok, agree to disagree. Thats like dismantling roads so that there are no car accidents. I'd favour targeting the bad drivers, not the roads or the other sensible drivers

I agree there is an alcohol issue, but it appears that you loathe alcohol? Thats ok, but it does come across as biased. IMHO 


No dont loathe it at all.  I enjoy a drink as much as the next person.  But I did admit I deal with the fall out from it for my job, so maybe you can understand why I feel more strongly than those who dont.  Physically being involved in the reality of it has an impact on you for sure.  Plus I always try to take an evidence based approach to life, although can struggle with this as much as the next person.

You have highlighted an interesting area with it though, in that there are other options to reduce alcohol harm, and programs like what you suggest do exist however they are not particularly cost effective.  Hence me saying the most cost effective proven way to reduce harm.  

An equal paradigm is around the alcohol driving levels.  They have dropped and will likely lead to a reduction in alcohol related road injuries and possibly road deaths.  Now it wasn't necessarily the most popular option, but significantly more cost effective than running more drink driving adverts.


Why fast food?
I still have not seen a single argument as to why this should not happen. All arguments point to alcohol abuse, intoxication etc. Which as already highlighted does not happen in licence restaurants.


Not just fast food outlets, but that is the one in question for this topic, hence me saying "no".  I am particularly put off by this because of the proliferation of these "restaurants" around NZ.  Not sure about no evidence as stated there are lots of sources that indicate more premises serving correlate with higher levels of alcohol abuse.  Why?  We can only speculate. Encourages consumption more often? Causes a behavioural/choice change that leads to further consumption, there or elsewhere?  I would agree that there are other types of licence holders that we could proportionally have more benefit in reducing, ie bottle stores especially in at-risk communities.

Let me just say again, its disappointing that this is the reality because we all agree the vast majority of Kiwis can and do drink responsibly.  But whether you can see the link or not, it is the reality.


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  # 1416128 29-Oct-2015 14:08
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Will i be able to order beer through the drive through and will they up-size to the usual soft drink bucket size? :P


In all seriousness though, of all the fast food chains Wendys is probably the least family friendly (as far as no kids playgrounds or offering "healthier" alternatives to kids combos) and i could see having a small selection of alcohol as almost fitting into their intended market. Would i buy a beer from there no, would i care if the guy next to me, no .

I say let them trial it, if it doesn't work then we will have sound reason to fight it moving forward


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  # 1416129 29-Oct-2015 14:09
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There's definite class bias applied when arguing against Wendy's getting a license.
I'd bet that in Merivale, there are far more licensed premises per capita / per square metre in their shopping centre than in Hornby.  The old Burger King in the Carlton was in a pub - I don't recall there being any fuss about that at the time. 
I doubt that (excess) alcohol consumption is more of a problem in Hornby than Merivale/Fendalton either, just that the wealthy are less prone to hang out their dirty laundry in public, and in general there's less violence (alcohol induced or not) in more well-to-do parts of town.

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