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  Reply # 1427719 13-Nov-2015 19:07
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The Govt talks about this special relationship with Australia. Special relationship.... Yeah right




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

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  Reply # 1427720 13-Nov-2015 19:19
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DizzyD:
sir1963:
DizzyD:
frankv: 
As I said, I have no problem with the deportation. What I absolutely disagree with is "detaining" someone indefinitely.


These people have been offered a free ride back to NZ and they not taking it.
Detained? Yea right! 



Detained, yes.

They are being given a choice "Yeah look, you can either stay here for life, or you can plead guilty and get life"

Australia is in breach of a number of UN conventions.


No. New Zealanders on Christmas Island can return home to New Zealand if they want, what they are fighting is the Australian deportation orders. They want back into Aus. 

Why should they be let back into Aus if they are not Citizens, Permanent residents, or hold a valid visa? Why should they be let back in if they are criminals?

Personally I would rather have them in Aus. The less criminals in NZ the better. 


99% of their lives have been as Australians.
Educated in Australia, worked in Australia. To them Australia is home, they know nothing else.

It also seems to me they are getting convicted twice , once after the crime and then years later getting convicted and punished again.
Are they going to locked up Australians again to serve another unspecified punishment ?



 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1427722 13-Nov-2015 19:27
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DizzyD:
frankv: Whilst I tend to agree that there's not a great deal that John Key can actually do, I do agree that he's gutless and amoral in not making it a point. Whilst there is ONE child molester and some violent criminals amongst the Kiwi detainees, there are many that are deserving of assistance. And whatever happened to the concept that once you've done your time, you've paid your debt and your punishment is over?

I have no problem with Australia deporting a Kiwi when he finishes his 12 month sentence. During that 12 months, they can deal with the deportation issue and the appeals and all of that. When his time is up, either he walks out the door back to Australia, or is put onto a plane to NZ. But, where the crime (if there was even a crime) was way back in the past, why *can't* they appeal the deportation whilst they continue to lead productive lives in Australia? Why can't they be given (e.g.) 3 months to sort their lives out before they leave? Imagine if the NZ Govt said Aussies could only dispute their tax bill/criminal conviction/speeding ticket if they move to Australia.

It's disingenuous to say that "They are free to leave at anytime and return to NZ." Many have not been to NZ for decades, so it can hardly be said that they are "returning". Once deported, they can't re-enter Australia for 5 years, I think. If ever, maybe, given that they may have a jail term on their record. Imagine trying to sell your house/car/whatever in Aussie whilst in NZ. Imagine moving to NZ where you know no-one, whilst your family is in Australia.  

I do think that what Australia is currently doing with detainees is not that different from what the USA was (is?) doing at Guantanamo Bay. Locking up people without trial, let alone conviction, for indefinite periods is an abuse of human rights. Whether it's legal or not, it is *wrong*. And on that basis alone, the NZ Govt should be assisting the citizens it is supposed to represent. Maybe we should change our flag, because there's precious little to be proud of about the current one in this scenario.

I think it's ironic that what Australia is doing is essentially the same as what Britain did in the 1800s, when it transported hundreds of political prisoners (notably the Irish) to Australia. Have the descendants of those victims of state oppression completely forgotten what was done to their own forefathers?



You missing one major point. New Zealand is also doing the same thing.

These are not Australian citizens, they illegally in Australia. Australia owes them nothing. 
We do the same thing here to people that come to NZ and break their visa conditions, let alone become a criminal.

Figures provided under the Official Information Act show that 447 people from 54 different countries were deported from NZ after committing a crime between 2010 and August this year.




The case you have shown is somewhat different.
First of all he came as a adult, 3 of his 8 years in NZ have been in prison, and the deportation was at the end of the prison sentence which is normal.

The Australians are deporting people who have been there for 40+ years being taken there as children. They are also deporting people years/decades after their conviction.They also seem to be deporting people who have no criminal convictions at all.

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  Reply # 1427727 13-Nov-2015 19:38
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meesham:
MikeB4: If I read things right the Kiwi Soldier has not been convicted or charged with any offences. It seems to be due to association.


The relevant rule in the character test:


You will not pass the character test if:
...
you are or have been a member of a group or organisation, or had or have an association with a person, group or organisation that the Minister reasonably suspects of being involved in criminal conduct


The photo of him in the SMH article wearing a Rebels tshirt and smoking a what looks like a joint probably doesn't help his case.



I would be more comfortable knowing that a government worked well within the law, and more importantly allowed the police and the courts to do their job without political interference.

"reasonably suspects" is a long way from proof, hell people have even been freed from prison as new evidence has proven a jury of 12 has been wrong. What would the minister do here, deport them because for the last x many years they had been associating with criminals while wrongly convicted in prison.

Whats next, throwing anyone of the muslim faith out on the suspicion they might break the law ?



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  Reply # 1427732 13-Nov-2015 19:48
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vexxxboy:
MikeB4: If I read things right the Kiwi Soldier has not been convicted or charged with any offences. It seems to be due to association.


i can guarantee that he might not have a criminal record but i bet the Australian security agency's have a file and info on him that say he is not a upstanding citizen and he is a member of a major criminal gang.


Plenty of people have been convicted, failing to convince a jury of 12 they were innocent yet released years / decades later because DNA or other evidence proved they were wrongly convicted (and even evidence that has been proven to be fabricated/planted by police).

Lawful countries work better when the laws and evidence can be tested for truthfulness.

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  Reply # 1427737 13-Nov-2015 19:58
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In the eyes of Australian law, Kiwis are legal aliens, non residents, without the rights of residents.

Unfortunately that is not clear to Kiwis who think they are residents, called residents but legally as good as aliens.

There is a simple way. Become Permanent Residents and then citizens when eligible.

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  Reply # 1427739 13-Nov-2015 20:00
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joker97: In the eyes of Australian law, Kiwis are legal aliens, non residents, without the rights of residents.

Unfortunately that is not clear to Kiwis who think they are residents, called residents but legally as good as aliens.

There is a simple way. Become Permanent Residents and then citizens when eligible.


Except Australia has made this significantly more difficult for NZers.


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  Reply # 1427741 13-Nov-2015 20:06
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Is that true? So we can't apply to be PRs (and be accepted)?

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  Reply # 1427758 13-Nov-2015 20:29
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sir1963:
joker97: In the eyes of Australian law, Kiwis are legal aliens, non residents, without the rights of residents.

Unfortunately that is not clear to Kiwis who think they are residents, called residents but legally as good as aliens.

There is a simple way. Become Permanent Residents and then citizens when eligible.


Except Australia has made this significantly more difficult for NZers.



What crap.

Its easy for Kiwis to get into Aus. Just arrive at border, show your passport and you in.
You can even work. Try arrving in Australia from South Africa, China, the USA, UK without a visa. 

Its this special relationship that is complicating things. Nothing is stopping Kiwis from applying for PR/Citizenship once in Aus. IMO its probably time that this special visa category for Kiwis was scrapped. Ungrateful lot. 

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  Reply # 1427759 13-Nov-2015 20:32
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DizzyD:
sir1963:
joker97: In the eyes of Australian law, Kiwis are legal aliens, non residents, without the rights of residents.

Unfortunately that is not clear to Kiwis who think they are residents, called residents but legally as good as aliens.

There is a simple way. Become Permanent Residents and then citizens when eligible.


Except Australia has made this significantly more difficult for NZers.



What crap.

Its easy for Kiwis to get into Aus. Just arrive at border, show your passport and you in.
You can even work. Try arrving in Australia from South Africa, China, the USA, UK without a visa. 

Its this special relationship that is complicating things. Nothing is stopping Kiwis from applying for PR/Citizenship once in Aus. IMO its probably time that this special visa category for Kiwis was scrapped. Ungrateful lot. 


Kiwis are being treated not as friends by Australia, maybe we should return the honor and treat like for like.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1427760 13-Nov-2015 20:32
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Geektastic:
Rikkitic: What everyone seems to be forgetting is that regardless of the crimes (some of) these people may have committed, they have Done Their Time. In the good old days, when democracies and justice and fair play still existed, the idea was that people who had served their sentences were supposed to be given a fresh start and a second chance. What is happening in Australia, unbelievably, is that people who have already completed their sentences are being imprisoned a second time with no semblance of due process. Even Peter Dunne thinks this is wrong.



Yes, but he's a bit of a wet!

It all seems very simple:

These people are NOT permanent residents or citizens, they are visitors. 

Australia says "Hey Kiwis you can visit AND work! However if you misbehave in these ways we will revoke your visa and send you home." Were they permanent residents it would probably be much harder, and if they were citizens it would be more or less impossible.

The 200 people misbehaved. Australia wants to send them home. Australia is entitled to do so.

If you want the benefits of civil society, don't carry out criminal acts: seems extraordinarily simple.


People make mistakes. Many move on and don't make them again. Have a little compassion.





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1427761 13-Nov-2015 20:35
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meesham:
sir1963: 
Detained, yes.

They are being given a choice "Yeah look, you can either stay here for life, or you can plead guilty and get life"

Australia is in breach of a number of UN conventions.


The Australian immigration minister has said that there'll be no bias against their application if they wait for the appeal while back in New Zealand.


Tui sign coming.





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1427762 13-Nov-2015 20:38
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DizzyD:
frankv:
DizzyD:
frankv: 
As I said, I have no problem with the deportation. What I absolutely disagree with is "detaining" someone indefinitely.


These people have been offered a free ride back to NZ and they not taking it.
Detained? Yea right! 


There you go again... In many cases, they are NOT going BACK.

Before they can go back to Australia, they will have to pay the cost of their deportation, so it's NOT a free ride either.

If they agree to be deported to a country many have not been to for decades, and leave all their possessions and families in Australia, then they can leave Christmas Island.




There is NO option for them to go back to Aus. 

Hell. Is NZ really such a bad place? People will rather choose to be detained in a detention center, on an island, than come to NZ. 


You said it.





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1427776 13-Nov-2015 21:46
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MikeB4:
DizzyD:
sir1963:
joker97: In the eyes of Australian law, Kiwis are legal aliens, non residents, without the rights of residents.

Unfortunately that is not clear to Kiwis who think they are residents, called residents but legally as good as aliens.

There is a simple way. Become Permanent Residents and then citizens when eligible.


Except Australia has made this significantly more difficult for NZers.



What crap.

Its easy for Kiwis to get into Aus. Just arrive at border, show your passport and you in.
You can even work. Try arrving in Australia from South Africa, China, the USA, UK without a visa. 

Its this special relationship that is complicating things. Nothing is stopping Kiwis from applying for PR/Citizenship once in Aus. IMO its probably time that this special visa category for Kiwis was scrapped. Ungrateful lot. 


Kiwis are being treated not as friends by Australia, maybe we should return the honor and treat like for like.


Totally agree. Australians can come here and get free education and free social services and free student allowance. And can even vote.

(i could be wrong though, but when I was a student looking at options, pretty sure that was the case)

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  Reply # 1427778 13-Nov-2015 21:59
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joker97:
MikeB4:
DizzyD:
sir1963:
joker97: In the eyes of Australian law, Kiwis are legal aliens, non residents, without the rights of residents.

Unfortunately that is not clear to Kiwis who think they are residents, called residents but legally as good as aliens.

There is a simple way. Become Permanent Residents and then citizens when eligible.


Except Australia has made this significantly more difficult for NZers.



What crap.

Its easy for Kiwis to get into Aus. Just arrive at border, show your passport and you in.
You can even work. Try arrving in Australia from South Africa, China, the USA, UK without a visa. 

Its this special relationship that is complicating things. Nothing is stopping Kiwis from applying for PR/Citizenship once in Aus. IMO its probably time that this special visa category for Kiwis was scrapped. Ungrateful lot. 


Kiwis are being treated not as friends by Australia, maybe we should return the honor and treat like for like.


Totally agree. Australians can come here and get free education and free social services and free student allowance. And can even vote.

(i could be wrong though, but when I was a student looking at options, pretty sure that was the case)


Australians don't flock to NZ ;-)

Bit of a difference. 

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