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222 posts

Master Geek


  # 1428362 15-Nov-2015 15:39

I thought this was an interesting article.  How sad, as the writer points out, that "Paris is under curfew for the first time since the German occupation".  Hard to believe. 

http://www.steynonline.com/7293/the-barbarians-are-inside-and-there-are-no-gates


523 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1428363 15-Nov-2015 15:42
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Rikkitic: Here in New Zealand we tolerate and give charitable status to extreme fundamentalist Christian groups who believe homosexuals and others denounced by the bible should be excluded and persecuted at best, and probably stoned to death at worst. They think women should be subject to their men and deprived of a full education. Who is to say what these groups might get up to if they were allowed to? What restrains the worst of their excesses, is New Zealand law. 

In this free democracy of ours, we do not dictate what people are allowed to believe. We only place limits on expressions of that belief if they contravene the law.

On that basis I see no difference between Gloriavale Christians and Sharia Muslims. They are allowed to believe what they want, and to enter politics and act to bring about the society they want, as long as they respect the laws of the land while doing so. If a Muslim (or Christian) resorts to arms or coercion, they are breaking the law and are dealt with accordingly. If they espouse a repressive society and work to persuade others to support that, they are doing nothing illegal. It is called democracy.
 


There lies a problem.

These people are not fighting for democracy, they opposed to democracy and will not be happy living in a democracy. They want a system of law that deals with all aspects of day-to-day life. This includes politics, economics, banking, business law, contract law, sexuality, and social issues. You assuming they will "respect the existing laws of the land".

Democracy cannot survive Islamic fundamentalism.

What happens when you reach a majority of Islamic fundamentalists? We reach a tipping point. Its still early days in most European countries, but I'm pretty sure that at least in my lifetime, we will see at least one very liberal democratic country becoming an Islamic state. Germany or France will probably be the first! 

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

WINSTON CHURCHILL


I suggest you go do some more reading on both Christianity and Islam. Your lack of knowledge on both faiths is quiet apparent.

 
 
 
 


6434 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1428366 15-Nov-2015 15:55
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DizzyD: Paris terrorist held Syrian refugee passport, says Greek government official


Living on a liitle island makes border control easier to enforce. But thanks to the Greens here in NZ, we have increased our refugee quota. 



I bet at least one of them held a french passport too.  Do we even have a quota for French passport holders?

523 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1428368 15-Nov-2015 16:01
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NonprayingMantis:
DizzyD: Paris terrorist held Syrian refugee passport, says Greek government official


Living on a liitle island makes border control easier to enforce. But thanks to the Greens here in NZ, we have increased our refugee quota. 



I bet at least one of them held a french passport too.  Do we even have a quota for French passport holders?


Yip, more than likely. Which makes this situation so hard. The enemy within. 



Lock him up!
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  # 1428369 15-Nov-2015 16:06
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DizzyD:
Rikkitic: Here in New Zealand we tolerate and give charitable status to extreme fundamentalist Christian groups who believe homosexuals and others denounced by the bible should be excluded and persecuted at best, and probably stoned to death at worst. They think women should be subject to their men and deprived of a full education. Who is to say what these groups might get up to if they were allowed to? What restrains the worst of their excesses, is New Zealand law. 

In this free democracy of ours, we do not dictate what people are allowed to believe. We only place limits on expressions of that belief if they contravene the law.

On that basis I see no difference between Gloriavale Christians and Sharia Muslims. They are allowed to believe what they want, and to enter politics and act to bring about the society they want, as long as they respect the laws of the land while doing so. If a Muslim (or Christian) resorts to arms or coercion, they are breaking the law and are dealt with accordingly. If they espouse a repressive society and work to persuade others to support that, they are doing nothing illegal. It is called democracy.
 


There lies a problem.

These people are not fighting for democracy, they opposed to democracy and will not be happy living in a democracy. They want a system of law that deals with all aspects of day-to-day life. This includes politics, economics, banking, business law, contract law, sexuality, and social issues. You assuming they will "respect the existing laws of the land".

Democracy cannot survive Islamic fundamentalism.

What happens when you reach a majority of Islamic fundamentalists? We reach a tipping point. Its still early days in most European countries, but I'm pretty sure that at least in my lifetime, we will see at least one very liberal democratic country becoming an Islamic state. Germany or France will probably be the first! 

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

WINSTON CHURCHILL


I suggest you go do some more reading on both Christianity and Islam. Your lack of knowledge on both faiths is quiet apparent.


I am not arguing religion. I am arguing democracy. As soon as you start excluding, penalising, restricting people for what they think instead of what they do, you are in new and dangerous territory. I happen to believe all religion is superstitious nonsense and I particularly loathe fundamentalists of all faiths, but if a democratic majority choose to live under such a system, that is their free choice. Either you respect that or you don't. If you don't, maybe you better start measuring yourself for a Napolean hat because that is where you are headed and I don't think that is any more desirable than an Islamic theocracy. On the basis of some things you have said here, it may actually be the worse choice.





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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Ultimate Geek
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  # 1428377 15-Nov-2015 16:31
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Rikkitic: 

I am not arguing religion. I am arguing democracy. As soon as you start excluding, penalising, restricting people for what they think instead of what they do, you are in new and dangerous territory. I happen to believe all religion is superstitious nonsense and I particularly loathe fundamentalists of all faiths, but if a democratic majority choose to live under such a system, that is their free choice. Either you respect that or you don't. If you don't, maybe you better start measuring yourself for a Napolean hat because that is where you are headed and I don't think that is any more desirable than an Islamic theocracy. On the basis of some things you have said here, it may actually be the worse choice.



I could take offence to that, But, i prefer not to. You have the right to say what you like about me, even if you don't know me. Your right to say it is much more important than my right to get offended ;-) 

Anyway, moving on. I agree with everything you say, except for the Napolean part of course! The flaw if your argument however is you basing your argument under a democratic system. Its only true if we all living under the democratic umbrella, and are not fighting to enforce law/rules/my belief on anybody else. Remember, Islamic fundamentalists are anti-democracy to start with. So there is no point in arguing about their rights. Anybody who's sole ambition in life is to overthrow democracy gets no rights IMO.

As far as I am concerned, they only have rights if they subscribe to a democratic system. Anything outside of that is not even worth discussing. We should protect our democracy at all costs. 

I am in no way saying that these Islamic fundamentalists have no right to believe what they want. I am saying that we should be careful. Why should we let people into NZ when their sole ambition is to dismantle democracy? Having plenty of people like this in our country is asking for big trouble. 

I dont want to go down the road of discussing religion. 



gzt

10979 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1428387 15-Nov-2015 17:00
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What are the details of this curfew? It looks to be an immediate voluntary stay inside until further notice and not really a curfew.


 
 
 
 


Lock him up!
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  # 1428394 15-Nov-2015 17:36
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DizzyD:

I dont want to go down the road of discussing religion. 




Fair enough. The real issue is how to maintain a civilised society with democratic values while under attack. How do you know who the enemy is? How do you avoid being crippled by paranoia?

My point is I don't think you can successfully defend a free society by abandoning democratic principles. You can't start passing judgements on people according to how they look or where they worship. You have to protect yourself and your loved ones, but you also have to trust others and give them the benefit of the doubt. A balance between sensible caution and hysterical xenophobia has to be found. Otherwise you end up with something not worth defending anyway.

Whatever happens, the world will never be quite the same again, just like 9/11. Something has been broken that can't be put back. I find that very regrettable. 
 

  




I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1428400 15-Nov-2015 17:50
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Rikkitic:
DizzyD:

I dont want to go down the road of discussing religion. 




Fair enough. The real issue is how to maintain a civilised society with democratic values while under attack. How do you know who the enemy is? How do you avoid being crippled by paranoia?

My point is I don't think you can successfully defend a free society by abandoning democratic principles. You can't start passing judgements on people according to how they look or where they worship. You have to protect yourself and your loved ones, but you also have to trust others and give them the benefit of the doubt. A balance between sensible caution and hysterical xenophobia has to be found. Otherwise you end up with something not worth defending anyway.

Whatever happens, the world will never be quite the same again, just like 9/11. Something has been broken that can't be put back. I find that very regrettable. 
 

  


Democratic values can survive wars, history has shown that. It will not survive inaction.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


856 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1428429 15-Nov-2015 19:46
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Rikkitic:
DizzyD: 


Again. Your opinion. But no more valid than mine. 



Of course you are entitled to your opinions and on reflection maybe I was a little harsh. This is an important issue and one that will affect us all sooner or later. I don’t think it is correct to conflate terrorism with immigration, whether by refugees or otherwise, and I was objecting to the inference you were making. Of course there is always a risk that terrorists may hide themselves in the refugee stream, which may have happened in France, but the overwhelming majority of refugees are genuine and are fleeing from terrible conditions. They should not all be tarred with the same brush and careful screening can minimise any risk. Also, I object to this matter being politicised in such a way. Your statement seems to suggest that our borders have been thrown open to dangerous extremists because of Green policy. That is disingenuous and simply wrong.

Equally, it is wrong to judge an entire group of people on the basis of a single characteristic. It is grossly unfair, not to mention utterly senseless, to exclude entire populations just because they happen to come from Islamic countries. Do you seriously believe countries like Ireland, Spain, the USA, or France itself are not perfectly capable of breeding their own terrorists? Such a suggestion isn’t even logical.




 



 

You are not really paying attention are you?

 



 

About six months ago, an IS spokesman said that they intended to flood Europe with migrants and to use that flood to infiltrate their fighters.

 



 

The IS affiliate in Libya seized control of a number of port towns and started encouraging migrants onto boats rather than trying to stop them as had been the case when others were running those towns. Earlier this year, IS started to become active in Turkey. Is it really a coincidence that hundreds of thousands of Syrians who had spent years in Turkey suddenly decided to get on boats to Greece and then hike up through the Balkans into Western Europe?

 



 

The current elevated flow of migrants into Europe is clearly being driven by IS in order both to destabilize European nations and to infiltrate IS personnel into Europe.

Mad Scientist
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  # 1428437 15-Nov-2015 19:58
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Someone, somehow, these fellas have unlimited funds to implement their terrorism. Anyone knows how and why the world isn't able to stop the money flowing.




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  # 1428442 15-Nov-2015 20:03
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joker97: Someone, somehow, these fellas have unlimited funds to implement their terrorism. Anyone knows how and why the world isn't able to stop the money flowing.


I have heard it said that they have very rich sympathisers in some of the Arab oil states. I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Lock him up!
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  # 1428446 15-Nov-2015 20:07
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jpoc: 


You are not really paying attention are you?

About six months ago, an IS spokesman said that they intended to flood Europe with migrants and to use that flood to infiltrate their fighters.

The IS affiliate in Libya seized control of a number of port towns and started encouraging migrants onto boats rather than trying to stop them as had been the case when others were running those towns. Earlier this year, IS started to become active in Turkey. Is it really a coincidence that hundreds of thousands of Syrians who had spent years in Turkey suddenly decided to get on boats to Greece and then hike up through the Balkans into Western Europe?

The current elevated flow of migrants into Europe is clearly being driven by IS in order both to destabilize European nations and to infiltrate IS personnel into Europe.



I am aware of that. I saw the same media reports you did. I am also aware that these people are engaged in psychological warfare. I don't doubt they would like to do what they say, but I do doubt their capacity to carry it out, except in a limited fashion. Bluster is also part of their campaign. If you run around in circles screaming the sky is falling, you are just doing what they want. I stand by my previous statements. Most immigrants are genuine and should be welcomed. Democracy cannot be defended by abandoning its values.





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


856 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1428451 15-Nov-2015 20:16
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Rikkitic: Here in New Zealand we tolerate and give charitable status to extreme fundamentalist Christian groups who believe homosexuals and others denounced by the bible should be excluded and persecuted at best, and probably stoned to death at worst. They think women should be subject to their men and deprived of a full education. Who is to say what these groups might get up to if they were allowed to? What restrains the worst of their excesses, is New Zealand law. 

In this free democracy of ours, we do not dictate what people are allowed to believe. We only place limits on expressions of that belief if they contravene the law.

On that basis I see no difference between Gloriavale Christians and Sharia Muslims. They are allowed to believe what they want, and to enter politics and act to bring about the society they want, as long as they respect the laws of the land while doing so. If a Muslim (or Christian) resorts to arms or coercion, they are breaking the law and are dealt with accordingly. If they espouse a repressive society and work to persuade others to support that, they are doing nothing illegal. It is called democracy.
 

 



 

That comparison is utterly grotesque.

 



 

I am not a great fan of Gloriavale but I cannot understand how you can believe that.

 



 

If somebody quits Gloriavale they can just go. Nobody calls for their death for apostasy and nobody attempts to fulfill such a call. Can you say that about Sharia based Muslim communities?

 



 

If a young person from Gloriavale falls in love with a person outside of their community, nobody gets murdered to defend family honor. Can you say that about Sharia based Muslim communities?

 



 

If the Herald runs yet another cartoon making fun of Gloriavale, nobody turns up at the paper's office with assault rifles. Can you say that about Sharia based Muslim communities?

 



 

When we have elections in NZ, nobody at Gloriavale declares that nobody should vote on pain of death as only God can decide who should rule. Can you say that about Sharia based Muslim communities?

 



 

If young women decide to put on their disco frocks and go out for the evening, the folks at Gloriavale don't form up as decency patrols to wander down Queen Street and wield batons at them. Can you say that about Sharia based Muslim communities?

 



 

I could go on but that is enough for now. Every one of those actions is against the law in all Western nations but Sharia-law proponents have done every one of those things in the UK or France in the last few years.

 


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Ultimate Geek


  # 1428453 15-Nov-2015 20:23
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Rikkitic:
jpoc: 


You are not really paying attention are you?

About six months ago, an IS spokesman said that they intended to flood Europe with migrants and to use that flood to infiltrate their fighters.

The IS affiliate in Libya seized control of a number of port towns and started encouraging migrants onto boats rather than trying to stop them as had been the case when others were running those towns. Earlier this year, IS started to become active in Turkey. Is it really a coincidence that hundreds of thousands of Syrians who had spent years in Turkey suddenly decided to get on boats to Greece and then hike up through the Balkans into Western Europe?

The current elevated flow of migrants into Europe is clearly being driven by IS in order both to destabilize European nations and to infiltrate IS personnel into Europe.



I am aware of that. I saw the same media reports you did. I am also aware that these people are engaged in psychological warfare. I don't doubt they would like to do what they say, but I do doubt their capacity to carry it out, except in a limited fashion. Bluster is also part of their campaign. If you run around in circles screaming the sky is falling, you are just doing what they want. I stand by my previous statements. Most immigrants are genuine and should be welcomed. Democracy cannot be defended by abandoning its values.

 



 

If you really see the same media reports as I do then you would be aware that German media are reporting that most people who are arriving in Germany with claims to be Syrian refugees have never even been to Syria. They are just piggybacking on the current Zeitgeist in the hope of gaining settlement in Western Europe.

 


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