Awful events in Paris 2015-11-14

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# 1428455 15-Nov-2015 20:27

jpoc:
Rikkitic:
DizzyD:

Again. Your opinion. But no more valid than mine.

Of course you are entitled to your opinions and on reflection maybe I was a little harsh. This is an important issue and one that will affect us all sooner or later. I don’t think it is correct to conflate terrorism with immigration, whether by refugees or otherwise, and I was objecting to the inference you were making. Of course there is always a risk that terrorists may hide themselves in the refugee stream, which may have happened in France, but the overwhelming majority of refugees are genuine and are fleeing from terrible conditions. They should not all be tarred with the same brush and careful screening can minimise any risk. Also, I object to this matter being politicised in such a way. Your statement seems to suggest that our borders have been thrown open to dangerous extremists because of Green policy. That is disingenuous and simply wrong.

Equally, it is wrong to judge an entire group of people on the basis of a single characteristic. It is grossly unfair, not to mention utterly senseless, to exclude entire populations just because they happen to come from Islamic countries. Do you seriously believe countries like Ireland, Spain, the USA, or France itself are not perfectly capable of breeding their own terrorists? Such a suggestion isn’t even logical.

You are not really paying attention are you?

About six months ago, an IS spokesman said that they intended to flood Europe with migrants and to use that flood to infiltrate their fighters.

The IS affiliate in Libya seized control of a number of port towns and started encouraging migrants onto boats rather than trying to stop them as had been the case when others were running those towns. Earlier this year, IS started to become active in Turkey. Is it really a coincidence that hundreds of thousands of Syrians who had spent years in Turkey suddenly decided to get on boats to Greece and then hike up through the Balkans into Western Europe?

The current elevated flow of migrants into Europe is clearly being driven by IS in order both to destabilize European nations and to infiltrate IS personnel into Europe.

Terrorists make a lot of scary threats. That is what makes them terrorists. Very few of those threats materialise. They do not want refugees in their territory anyway and very few will be convinced to fight for Isis. They had very little to do with refugee movement. You are mostly believing Isis propaganda at face value.

Rikkitic

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# 1428459 15-Nov-2015 20:46

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Ok, a couple of things and then I am out of here. This thread has moved a long way from its origin, which was to express solidarity with Paris in the wake of the outrage committed there.

I think everyone has made their positions clear here and there is nothing to be gained by dragging this out any further. We have had a nice democratic debate and no-one is going to change anyone's mind. I do want to respond to two things.

First, the point I was making when I used Gloriavale as an example, is that religious fanaticism is not limited to Islam. The only reason fundamentalists here are not doing exactly what ISIS does, is that they don't have the power. If they did, it wouldn't be long before the stonings started. Just look at the church during the Middle Ages. Fanaticism is fanaticism and it will go as far as it is allowed to. There is nothing special here, other than the rule of law, that prevents the same thing from happening. The enemy is not Islam, it is fundamentalist intolerance, in whatever guise it takes.

Second, I come from Europe and the issue of 'economic refugees' has been a sore point there for decades. There seems to be an attitude that there is something wrong with people who want to immigrate so they can earn more money, have a nicer life, and give their children more opportunities. I have never been able to see the issue with that. Isn't that what we all want?

Just because people are claiming to be Syrian when they are not does not mean they are terrorists.

That's it, I'm done. Enjoy the rest of the discussion.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

jpoc

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# 1428460 15-Nov-2015 20:50

joker97: Someone, somehow, these fellas have unlimited funds to implement their terrorism. Anyone knows how and why the world isn't able to stop the money flowing.

The money is coming from the same factions of the Saudi royal family that funded Al Qaeda's 9/11 attacks.

Western nations will not take action against those folks because the ability and willingness of the Saudis to pump oil and to boost production as required is too important.

Western nations gain twice over from the Saudis benevolent control of the oil taps.

Boosted flows help to keep the oil price low which is a big boost to Western economies. Remember the spike in crude prices 8 years ago was one of the factors that precipitated the GFC. We do not want that again. If you have a longer memory you will recall the oil supply and price shocks in the seventies which caused petrol rationing in much of the world.

Boosted flows also allow us to boycott oil supplies from people we really do not like.

We crippled the oil business in Iran to the extent that they came to the negotiating table over their nuclear programs and cut a deal. That cost us nothing. Our friends in the house of al Saud just cracked the taps open a little more to make up the shortfall.

Today, we are using the same routine to put Russia in its place. Western nations have cut back on their purchases of Russian hydrocarbons and the Saudis have stepped up to fill in the gap and also to hold the price down to a level that means that Russia will run out of cash in a year or two so we can hope that Putin will be reined in.

The Saudis are in a strong position because of geology. It is not only that they have the world's largest reserves in the ground but also their oil bearing rocks have a very high bandwidth. You only need a few wellheads to extract oil at a furious pace so you can boost oil extraction literally on demand. In contrast, Iraq's oil comes out of the ground at dial up speeds - in fact it is worse. If you doubled the number of well heads in Iraq you wold not even be close to doubling the rate at which oil would be extracted.

jpoc

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# 1428486 15-Nov-2015 21:29

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Rikkitic: Ok, a couple of things and then I am out of here. This thread has moved a long way from its origin, which was to express solidarity with Paris in the wake of the outrage committed there.

I think everyone has made their positions clear here and there is nothing to be gained by dragging this out any further. We have had a nice democratic debate and no-one is going to change anyone's mind. I do want to respond to two things.

First, the point I was making when I used Gloriavale as an example, is that religious fanaticism is not limited to Islam. The only reason fundamentalists here are not doing exactly what ISIS does, is that they don't have the power. If they did, it wouldn't be long before the stonings started. Just look at the church during the Middle Ages. Fanaticism is fanaticism and it will go as far as it is allowed to. There is nothing special here, other than the rule of law, that prevents the same thing from happening. The enemy is not Islam, it is fundamentalist intolerance, in whatever guise it takes.

Second, I come from Europe and the issue of 'economic refugees' has been a sore point there for decades. There seems to be an attitude that there is something wrong with people who want to immigrate so they can earn more money, have a nicer life, and give their children more opportunities. I have never been able to see the issue with that. Isn't that what we all want?

Just because people are claiming to be Syrian when they are not does not mean they are terrorists.

That's it, I'm done. Enjoy the rest of the discussion.

Oh, I see. So it is nothing to do with the fact that the Bible actually instructs Christ's followers to obey the rules of the non-Christian societies in which they live? I am talking about all that "render unto Caesar" stuff which has had a strong influence on Christian societies over the years.

As for the comparison to the church in the middle ages, you are again showing a lack of understanding.

The Christian church went through a period known as the enlightenment. You should try reading about it - even wikiP would be a good place to start. It gave the church, in all of its variants, a basis to update and modernize as society changed. Look at the Church's views on homosexuality. Many parts of the Anglican church have moved on this subject. The Catholic Church has even begun to talk about the possibility of change and in the last few weeks, this has even become a matter for discussion in the LDS.

freitasm

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# 1428497 15-Nov-2015 21:48

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jpoc: The Christian church went through a period known as the enlightenment.

The Enlightenment was a philosophical movement based in France and Germany that wanted to apply science to the progress of humankind. It actually was completely dissociated from the Church.

The Church did have a "reform" movement that was forced upon them by enlightened monarchs and elite, basically something that was the precursor of the reforms of Protestantism.

The Church did not accept it lightly (no pun intended) anyway. They are very slow on change.

Also, remember the Muslim ruled the Iberian Peninsula for almost 1,000 years. What we are seeing now is not what the Muslim culture was 1500 years ago. They brought advances in medicine, chemistry, mathematics - things Europe didn't even know existed back then.

What we are seeing now is a bunch of crazy power hungry manipulators that used religious principles to create a political ideology with religious principles to appeal to the folks who lost everything.

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gzt

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# 1428524 15-Nov-2015 22:11

jpoc: The Christian church went through a period known as the enlightenment.

You are probably entirely unaware that Islamic thought was a key influence on the thinkers of the enlightenment. In contrast, the key influence in the rise of Isis was the invasion and occupation of Iraq beginning in 2003.

Geektastic

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# 1428534 15-Nov-2015 22:26

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jpoc:
Rikkitic:
jpoc:

You are not really paying attention are you?

About six months ago, an IS spokesman said that they intended to flood Europe with migrants and to use that flood to infiltrate their fighters.

The IS affiliate in Libya seized control of a number of port towns and started encouraging migrants onto boats rather than trying to stop them as had been the case when others were running those towns. Earlier this year, IS started to become active in Turkey. Is it really a coincidence that hundreds of thousands of Syrians who had spent years in Turkey suddenly decided to get on boats to Greece and then hike up through the Balkans into Western Europe?

The current elevated flow of migrants into Europe is clearly being driven by IS in order both to destabilize European nations and to infiltrate IS personnel into Europe.

I am aware of that. I saw the same media reports you did. I am also aware that these people are engaged in psychological warfare. I don't doubt they would like to do what they say, but I do doubt their capacity to carry it out, except in a limited fashion. Bluster is also part of their campaign. If you run around in circles screaming the sky is falling, you are just doing what they want. I stand by my previous statements. Most immigrants are genuine and should be welcomed. Democracy cannot be defended by abandoning its values.

If you really see the same media reports as I do then you would be aware that German media are reporting that most people who are arriving in Germany with claims to be Syrian refugees have never even been to Syria. They are just piggybacking on the current Zeitgeist in the hope of gaining settlement in Western Europe.

I suspect Angela Merkel is already wishing she had taken a less, shall we say, generous line. Anti immigration feeling in Germany is apparently increasing (unsurprising, frankly - they are expecting a million refugees this year alone) and guilt about previous generations won't keep the lid on that forever.

With a million a year flooding in, it would be a dead cert that all kinds of undesirables will manage to use the opportunity to infiltrate the infidel nations. Once they are in Germany, they will be virtually impossible to keep there and can melt across land borders to any EU country. I am sure David Cameron is thanking his predecessors for not signing the Schengen paperwork even now..!

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# 1428593 16-Nov-2015 08:02

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I think it's disappointing that no one yet has mentioned Beirut.

A similar number of people killed and injured. Yet the response from the mass media couldn't be more stark.

It's unfortunate that the media don't just call the people "crazy nutjobs committing mass shootings" rather than Islamic anything. Then perhaps we would also include in that the very high number of mass shootings happening in the US.

Trying to have some perspective.

and

DizzyD

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# 1428594 16-Nov-2015 08:13

BarTender: I think it's disappointing that no one yet has mentioned Beirut.

A similar number of people killed and injured. Yet the response from the mass media couldn't be more stark.

Yes, I read somewhere that the Lebanese are asking Facebook ‘Where is our Safety Check?’

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# 1428595 16-Nov-2015 08:15

BarTender: I think it's disappointing that no one yet has mentioned Beirut.

A similar number of people killed and injured. Yet the response from the mass media couldn't be more stark.

It's unfortunate that the media don't just call the people "crazy nutjobs committing mass shootings" rather than Islamic anything. Then perhaps we would also include in that the very high number of mass shootings happening in the US.

Trying to have some perspective.

There is a difference, Beirut is similar but the shootings in the US are criminal. Paris, Beirut, Kenya is War. All equally bad.

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DizzyD

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# 1428599 16-Nov-2015 08:28

MikeB4:
BarTender: I think it's disappointing that no one yet has mentioned Beirut.

A similar number of people killed and injured. Yet the response from the mass media couldn't be more stark.

It's unfortunate that the media don't just call the people "crazy nutjobs committing mass shootings" rather than Islamic anything. Then perhaps we would also include in that the very high number of mass shootings happening in the US.

Trying to have some perspective.

There is a difference, Beirut is similar but the shootings in the US are criminal. Paris, Beirut, Kenya is War. All equally bad.

Paris has very strict gun control laws. Makes me wonder if these sorts of places are becoming a target. I somehow doubt we will ever be reading of such an incident in Texas.

I guess if I was living in Paris tight now I would be wishing I had the right to arm myself to protect myself and family from these "crazy nutjobs".

Suddenly I find myself agreeing with this guy: Paris 'Would've Been Different' if French Were Armed

"Nobody had guns. And they were just shooting them one by one, and then they broke in and had a big shootout and ultimately killed the terrorists.

"And I will tell you what -- you can say what you want, if they had guns, if our people had guns, if they were allowed to carry, it would have been a much, much different situation."

Back on the topic of refugees: In Canada they plan to settle 25000 Syrian refugees before end of the year! I wonder how many of those will be ISIS supporters? The Paris incident has proved that you just need one or two to slip through.

MikeB4

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# 1428602 16-Nov-2015 08:34

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DizzyD:
MikeB4:
BarTender: I think it's disappointing that no one yet has mentioned Beirut.

A similar number of people killed and injured. Yet the response from the mass media couldn't be more stark.

It's unfortunate that the media don't just call the people "crazy nutjobs committing mass shootings" rather than Islamic anything. Then perhaps we would also include in that the very high number of mass shootings happening in the US.

Trying to have some perspective.

There is a difference, Beirut is similar but the shootings in the US are criminal. Paris, Beirut, Kenya is War. All equally bad.

Paris has very strict gun control laws. Makes me wonder if these sorts of places are becoming a target. I somehow doubt we will ever be reading of such an incident in Texas.

I guess if I was living in Paris tight now I would be wishing I had the right to arm myself to protect myself and family from these "crazy nutjobs".

Arming yourself would be useless unless you are a trained professional. The people who did the Paris attacks were not basement dwellers or Playstation warriors, they were trained operatives.

Mike
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DizzyD

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# 1428606 16-Nov-2015 08:39

MikeB4:

Arming yourself would be useless unless you are a trained professional. The people who did the Paris attacks were not basement dwellers or Playstation warriors, they were trained operatives.

Try pull a stunt like this in Texas. I'm willing to bet that somebody would have blown their brains out.

This story may have been about heroes. Not the dead.

Rikkitic

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# 1428610 16-Nov-2015 08:53

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Stupid stupid stupid. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

Fred99

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# 1428611 16-Nov-2015 08:55

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Sure (not).
Texas has had it's share of mass-killings. Houston has held the title of "murder capital" of the US.
Gun fanatics always come out with preposterous theories. Despite widespread gun ownership in the USA, there's a dearth of "armed civilian saves innocents from mass murderer" stories.

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