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gzt

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  Reply # 1432942 22-Nov-2015 23:30
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Campylobacter is not the subject of the article. In addition do not confuse free range and organic.

Antibiotic resistant campylobacter is the subject of the article.

It is logical that chicken from organic producers typically using less antibiotics is far less likely to contain the resistant strain.

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  Reply # 1432944 22-Nov-2015 23:35
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Anyway I can understand the confusion here. The article kind of reads like a 60 minutes style impact script. Maybe this is the result of the recent NZME changes.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1432945 22-Nov-2015 23:40
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kiwigander: What evidence can you show to support your contention that free range organic poultry is less likely to be contaminated with Campylobacter than other poultry?

Stuff's poorly edited article mostly confirmed what we already knew about poultry, with the worrisome new finding of resistance to multiple antibiotics among Campylobacter.


You are putting words in my mouth, as I never said it did. But they don't use antibotics, so that is less likely to be a strain that is resistant, which is the whole problem the article refers to. The fact is that we have been warned for years to stop using antibotics unless we really need it. My understanding is that the free range ones which are organic are less likely to need antibotics too, as they have less risk of infection due to living conditions.

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  Reply # 1432947 22-Nov-2015 23:45
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Fred99: 

Stick to frozen chicken - or handle "fresh" chicken with extreme care.  Frozen chickens were the norm a decade ago, but my casual supermarket survey tells me that many/most people buy "fresh" chicken (aka bacteria soup) these days. 


I always freeze mine anyway. This is a worry too with fresh chicken http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/leaked-footage-shows-raw-chickens-6117764 

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  Reply # 1432948 22-Nov-2015 23:46
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gzt: Campylobacter is not the subject of the article. In addition do not confuse free range and organic.

Antibiotic resistant campylobacter is the subject of the article.

It is logical that chicken from organic producers typically using less antibiotics is far less likely to contain the resistant strain.


I disagree with you here.
It's not likely that the resistant strain would originate in animals where those particular antibiotics are not routinely used.
"Organic" chickens are as such, quite likely to acquire the resistant stain from humans.

The headline may be about the resistant strain, but in most cases you'll get better without antibiotics, the resistant strains should be no more virulent, and while AB resistance is a serious issue, in this case it can be avoided if people paid attention to basic food hygiene - whether they eat "organic", "free range", or the cheapest "pams" budget chooks.  

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  Reply # 1433008 23-Nov-2015 07:32
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The only meat I've ever had to take back because it was off (smelled) has been chicken. This has happened several times and I rarely buy it now, because I'm concerned about the supply chain and freshness.  My local butcher seems to sell the freshest meat and is well regarded, so I buy it occasionally from there.  I don't trust the supermarkets or local stores.  I also prefer to support traditional farming methods if I can, because they tend to reduce sickness and the need for antibiotics.  Industrialised farming requires industrialised medical treatment.



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  Reply # 1433072 23-Nov-2015 09:16
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I am very very careful with all food I eat. I have a very suppressed Immune System so anything like this could easily be fatal. I am very careful with cross contamination. I also limit dinning out and 99.9% of takeaways are off the menu.

If in doubt throw it out.




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  Reply # 1433093 23-Nov-2015 09:52
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Fred99:
kiwigander: What evidence can you show to support your contention that free range organic poultry is less likely to be contaminated with Campylobacter than other poultry?

Stuff's poorly edited article mostly confirmed what we already knew about poultry, with the worrisome new finding of resistance to multiple antibiotics among Campylobacter.


The article is typical - that's what we get.
There won't be evidence that free range chicken is less likely to be contaminated.
I suspect (from what little information is given) that the resistant strain has been passed back to chooks from people.  They normally use bacitracin as feed converter for poultry, tetracyclines are antagonists to bacitracin, so probably not used together (if tetracycline used at all). Fluoroquinolones for poultry - I don't know but doubt it.  For campylobacter, people don't usually get AB treatment (it's very very nasty, but by the time a patient presents, it's too late for AB treatment anyway).  However, fluoroquinolones and/or tetracyclines are widely used with humans.

Stick to frozen chicken - or handle "fresh" chicken with extreme care.  Frozen chickens were the norm a decade ago, but my casual supermarket survey tells me that many/most people buy "fresh" chicken (aka bacteria soup) these days. 


I haven't seen studies, which doesnt mean they are not out there, nor that they are - just not an area I have read up on.  I do however recall a scene in Food inc. where the USDA(?) tried to shut down a farm in the northen US that did organic chickens, that were slaughtered on site.  The claim was this was unsanitary and would lead to higher levels of food poisoning.  They then conducted actual bacterial assessments on the chickens after each process.

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  Reply # 1433135 23-Nov-2015 10:48
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itxtme:

I haven't seen studies, which doesnt mean they are not out there, nor that they are - just not an area I have read up on.  I do however recall a scene in Food inc. where the USDA(?) tried to shut down a farm in the northen US that did organic chickens, that were slaughtered on site.  The claim was this was unsanitary and would lead to higher levels of food poisoning.  They then conducted actual bacterial assessments on the chickens after each process.

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"Previous studies have reported that the prevalence of C. jejuni can be as high as 100% in organic chicken lots (12). In this study, 50% of the lots sampled were positive. The prevalence of organic lots that tested positive to C. jejuni appeared to be higher in value than in Quebec in 2003 (50% versus 35%), when the ceacal prevalence of C. jejuni in conventional chicken lots was last reported (38). This presence suggests that consumption of organic chickens might increase the exposure of consumers in Quebec to C. jejuni."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3187637/

The study also looks at AB resistance finding slightly higher levels of tetracycline resistant strains in the organically raised chickens, despite the fact that to be certified organic, antibiotics can't be used.

Don't assume that organically raised or free-range chicken will be less likely to be contaminated.  Once it's in the gut of the chicken, then to contaminate the meat there's cross-contamination during or following slaughter.  I didn't see "Food inc", but suggest that different slaughter methods / hygiene during and following slaughter may explain the different result - not the prevalence of pathogens in the chicken's gut prior to slaughter, though I suppose less intensive farming methods, if well managed, might reduce cross-infection through feed/water contamination etc.  The standard antibiotic fed as growth-promoter in broiler chickens (though this is probably denied, AFAIK it's ubiquitous even if given reason for administration is prophylaxis or treatment) is ineffective against campylobacter.  I guess that's probably because it's been used so long and so widely that all strains have developed resistance, though I don't know this - that bacteria might have always been resistant.

I presume that resistant strains are probably passed back to the (organically raised) chickens through human contact or wild birds or other animals.  And/or AFAIK, losing AB resistance once it's acquired can be a slow process - once it's happened, we're effectively stuck with it long-term.


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  Reply # 1433211 23-Nov-2015 12:12
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Cool. I'm missing the link tho. Is jejuni the resistant strain?

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  Reply # 1433237 23-Nov-2015 12:37
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gzt: Cool. I'm missing the link tho. Is jejuni the resistant strain?


No - it's the the most common species which causes campylobacteriosis in humans.  Development of resistance doesn't define a new species - it's a "strain".
But note that the resistant strain probably doesn't mean a more virulent strain.  If you're healthy, you'll get over it without antibiotics just the same as you would for a non-resistant strain, but if you do need antibiotics, then the options become limited.  And that's going to be a big problem with other bacterial infections.  All good when penicillin or amoxycillin of other appropriate ABs work, take a course of tablets with almost no serious side effects (for most people) if you get an infection, and you're cured, usually quickly.  With some of the last resort antibiotics if you get a resistant strain infection, then side effects etc aren't so mild - with potential serious toxicity, possibly not able to be taken orally, possibly requiring hospitalisation for IV, constant monitoring.  And worse - the bugs will develop resistance to those too.  Then we're stuffed - hence WHO warnings over the past weeks or two.




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  Reply # 1434634 25-Nov-2015 16:19
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Last question.Is crumbed chicken schnitzel safe as long as it's kept refrigerated before cooking and cooked until it's piping hot and the juices are clear?
 

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  Reply # 1434637 25-Nov-2015 16:36
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Cruciblewrecker: Last question.Is crumbed chicken schnitzel safe as long as it's kept refrigerated before cooking and cooked until it's piping hot and the juices are clear?
 

Sure, because it's not real chicken. :)




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  Reply # 1434639 25-Nov-2015 16:44
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kiwifidget:
Cruciblewrecker: Last question.Is crumbed chicken schnitzel safe as long as it's kept refrigerated before cooking and cooked until it's piping hot and the juices are clear?
 

Sure, because it's not real chicken. :)


How can it not be real chicken if it's made from sliced chicken breast?


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  Reply # 1434640 25-Nov-2015 16:45
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Cruciblewrecker: Last question.Is crumbed chicken schnitzel safe as long as it's kept refrigerated before cooking and cooked until it's piping hot and the juices are clear?
 


Safe, so long as the usual methods of avoiding cross-contamination when handling are adhered to.  I surely wouldn't keep crumbed, sliced, minced chicken in the fridge for very long though.  Increased surface area and increased handling = more risk IMO.
But if meat/chicken smells a bit "off" or hasn't been stored correctly, cooking might not save you from food poisoning, bugs like staphylococcus produce toxins.  Cooking should kill all the bugs, but may not destroy the toxins.  Unlike typical campylobacter or salmonella or listeria, onset of symptoms may be very quick after consumption (1/2 hour or less to a few hours), violent puking, but hopefully rapid recovery.  Better out than in they say - that applies here - let it rip.  I'd guess this is probably very common and under-reported - as you're feeling better without intervention -  about the time that you'd otherwise really be wanting to go see a Dr, say if you had a good dose of campylobacter, which could last many days, and with other nasty symptoms.
Disclaimer here - I am not a Dr/Medic.

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