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  Reply # 1435254 26-Nov-2015 14:37
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Yes I read that too. Obviously the Greek have every right to do something. I still think Turkey is defending the rebels in Syria behind the smoke and mirrors. Unfortunately the Russians have picked up on that and are now decimating them in retribution.

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  Reply # 1435255 26-Nov-2015 14:40
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nakedmolerat:
joker97: 
PPS - what i don't understand is Syria allows jsut about anyone into its airspace for fun.


This statement nails it! It completes everything what you have written earlier.

It shows that you don't even have any grasp of what is happening there.

Syria as a country is shrinking in size. They don't have the capacity of defending their air-space. This was so obvious to anyone who actually read and understand the news for the last few years... Few of their aeroplanes went astray and landed in other countries at the start of the civil war!


I have googled "airspace" "violation" "international law" with no enlightenment. All it says is it depends on the country's law.

Care to expand the acceptable rules of engagement?

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1435339 26-Nov-2015 16:18
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Lias:
old3eyes:
surfisup1000: This is not the first time the russians behaved like this. 

They have regularly infringed the airspace of various nations over the years. eg, 

"Russian bombers have increasingly entered Icelandic airspace"

The only surprise is this didn't happen earlier. 






I heard in the news this morning one of NZs foreign experts saying that a lot of the Russian bombs had infact been dropped in Turkish  territory rather than on ISIS targets in Syria  and may have been one of the reason for the attack.


It's not on Turkish territory, it's on ethnic Turkmen living in Syria, who are in militias fighting against the Syrian Government/Assad. Russia supports Assad, and most of the bombs it dropped have not actually been on ISIS, but on other factions fighting Assad, in particular the Turkmen militias. Russia calls anyone fighting the Syrian government "Terrorists" and bombs them, Turkey and the US, arms and supports them. It's a good old fashioned cold war proxy fight.


Usually, any group that takes up arms against the recognised government of a country is regarded as a criminal / terrorist gang by that government. To call them anything would be to concede they are legitimate in shooting police and soldiers and public servants. I don't know of a government on the planet that would concede that.






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  Reply # 1435342 26-Nov-2015 16:22
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joker97:
Linuxluver:
joker97: A violation is a violation. If you get anywhere near the US border you will be toast, nevermind enter it.


Like on 9/11. 

The other countries in the area will have radar signals. They will know who was where. NATO won't be going to war with Russia over BS like this. 


There are two points to be made.

1. A violation of airspace is serious and any action is justified.

2. Was there
-a violation in airspace. At the moment we don't know.
-Was there any warnings of getting too close to violating Turkish airspace. We don't know, but i suspect yes. And o suspect this is not the first time. And I suspect the Kremlin doesn't care, as it flies its fighter planes as close to any borders it likes. Recent, Swedish, usa, British.
- I suspect the Turks are protecting Syrian rebels of Turkish descent is the vibe I'm getting.


When bombing targets so close to the border one is always "very close" to some other country's airspace. The Turks made a mistake. They will be rewarded appropriately.  




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  Reply # 1435458 26-Nov-2015 19:36
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Turkey and Russia are providing very different maps of the route and interception.

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  Reply # 1435491 26-Nov-2015 20:00
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what has occurred has occurred, what is interesting the Russians have now deployed the very advanced S400 air defense system [arguably the most lethal in the world] and is escorting their bombers with fighters. The Russians have stated they will use this against any threat to their planes again. To quote the BBC "The message to Turkey and its allies is clear: don't dare try it again" 

To date the US and Russians had put in place processes to ensure their aircraft don't have come into conflict or have 'accidents' occur. I'm sure at least some in the US military will not be happy with Turkey when the result is Russians are now operating air defense systems which are a very serious threat even to the US and it allies.

Imho it was a short sighted move by Turkey

Despite all the rhetoric from the super powers in regards to how evil ISIL or Assad is it is the superpowers who have ensured the catastrophe that is now Syria


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  Reply # 1435518 26-Nov-2015 20:57
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Haven't read all the way back through this thread, so apologies if it's already been covered.... but

Sept 1 1983, the USSR (which later became the Russian Federation) shot down KAL007, an *unarmed* *747* that flew into its airspace, apparently without any warning.

Not to mention MH17, shot down in the Ukraine by a missile provided by Russia.

Also interesting that one of the Russian pilots was apparently killed by Turkmen on the Syrian side of the border. That says to me that Russian aviators were already hated by Turkmen in Syria, and suggests that these Turkmen had already been badly bombed by the Russians.

Under these circumstances, it was astonishingly naive or provocative for Russia to fly their military aircraft anywhere near the Turkish border. Given that Russia apparently wasn't prepared to follow up, I put my money on "stupid".



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  Reply # 1435706 27-Nov-2015 03:20
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frankv: Haven't read all the way back through this thread, so apologies if it's already been covered.... but

Sept 1 1983, the USSR (which later became the Russian Federation) shot down KAL007, an *unarmed* *747* that flew into its airspace, apparently without any warning.

Not to mention MH17, shot down in the Ukraine by a missile provided by Russia.

Also interesting that one of the Russian pilots was apparently killed by Turkmen on the Syrian side of the border. That says to me that Russian aviators were already hated by Turkmen in Syria, and suggests that these Turkmen had already been badly bombed by the Russians.

Under these circumstances, it was astonishingly naive or provocative for Russia to fly their military aircraft anywhere near the Turkish border. Given that Russia apparently wasn't prepared to follow up, I put my money on "stupid".




Yes and on 3 July 1988 the US shot down Airbus A380 killing 290 civilians and never apologized for doing so I don't understand your point.

Isis has weapons used on civilians deliberately and they where supplied to FSA by the US.

Aside from the fact that Russia's airbase is close to the border of Syria and Turkey and it was heading there, Russia has a very vested interest staying by the border of Syria and Turkey as Turkey supports Isis by buying oil and allegedly now human organs off them, not to mention they filter people who want to fight for ISIS to Syria Through Turkey.
Naturally Turkey wouldn't have been happy that Russia spent this week blowing up the oil supplies of Isis.

Stu

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  Reply # 1435725 27-Nov-2015 07:25
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It was an A300. Pretty sure there were no A380 in 1989!




Keep calm, and carry on posting.

 

 

 

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  Reply # 1435830 27-Nov-2015 10:03
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If the Turks have managed to provoke the Russians into deploying an S400 Triumf / SA-21 Growler system, and lighting it up, the Americans and, perhaps especially, the Israelis will be absolutely delighted, and not at all cross about it.
You may be sure that if that happens, the air around Syria will be filled with NATO and Israeli Signals Intelligence aircraft and drones busily vacuuming up the electronic signatures of the associated radar and radio systems.

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  Reply # 1435890 27-Nov-2015 10:54
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Stan:
frankv: Haven't read all the way back through this thread, so apologies if it's already been covered.... but

Sept 1 1983, the USSR (which later became the Russian Federation) shot down KAL007, an *unarmed* *747* that flew into its airspace, apparently without any warning.


Yes and on 3 July 1988 the US shot down Airbus A380 killing 290 civilians and never apologized for doing so I don't understand your point.


My point is that it is Russia... their policy has been (still is?) to shoot down without warning an aircraft that infringes their airspace. It's irrational for them to be surprised or outraged if another country does the same thing.


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  Reply # 1435969 27-Nov-2015 12:27
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Stan:
frankv: Haven't read all the way back through this thread, so apologies if it's already been covered.... but

Sept 1 1983, the USSR (which later became the Russian Federation) shot down KAL007, an *unarmed* *747* that flew into its airspace, apparently without any warning.

Not to mention MH17, shot down in the Ukraine by a missile provided by Russia.

Also interesting that one of the Russian pilots was apparently killed by Turkmen on the Syrian side of the border. That says to me that Russian aviators were already hated by Turkmen in Syria, and suggests that these Turkmen had already been badly bombed by the Russians.

Under these circumstances, it was astonishingly naive or provocative for Russia to fly their military aircraft anywhere near the Turkish border. Given that Russia apparently wasn't prepared to follow up, I put my money on "stupid".




Yes and on 3 July 1988 the US shot down Airbus A380 killing 290 civilians and never apologized for doing so I don't understand your point.

Isis has weapons used on civilians deliberately and they where supplied to FSA by the US.

Aside from the fact that Russia's airbase is close to the border of Syria and Turkey and it was heading there, Russia has a very vested interest staying by the border of Syria and Turkey as Turkey supports Isis by buying oil and allegedly now human organs off them, not to mention they filter people who want to fight for ISIS to Syria Through Turkey.
Naturally Turkey wouldn't have been happy that Russia spent this week blowing up the oil supplies of Isis.


I take it you are referring to the US downing of Iran [civilian] flight 655 ?

There is a saying I have which is: 'one does not usually see war criminals on the winning side' my point being it doesn't matter how bad the good guy is its all about the bad guy...[the Russians are painted as the bad guy in this]

Back to topic, well it now seems the Turks are now saying they didn't know it was a Russian plane which implies it could have been Syrian and the precedence is we [Turkey] have already downed those and no one was upset [except Syria]. Clearly the Turks should have had similar protocols and processes in place as the US+allies have to ensure they didn't come into conflict with Russian aircraft

The end result for Turkey is 1. Economic sanctions from their largest trading partner 2. Increased bombing of the Turkman rebels [& civilians] fighting Assad.







 


 


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  Reply # 1435979 27-Nov-2015 12:52
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frankv:
Stan:
frankv: Haven't read all the way back through this thread, so apologies if it's already been covered.... but

Sept 1 1983, the USSR (which later became the Russian Federation) shot down KAL007, an *unarmed* *747* that flew into its airspace, apparently without any warning.


Yes and on 3 July 1988 the US shot down Airbus A380 killing 290 civilians and never apologized for doing so I don't understand your point.


My point is that it is Russia... their policy has been (still is?) to shoot down without warning an aircraft that infringes their airspace. It's irrational for them to be surprised or outraged if another country does the same thing.



In 2012, Turkey lost an F-3 Phantom warplane to a Syrian attack after it strayed into Syrian territory.
“A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack,” President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who was then-Turkish prime minister at the time

As to your statement about Russia always shooting down aircraft with out warning that are violating where do you get this information and im talking about post ussr Russia

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  Reply # 1436040 27-Nov-2015 13:55
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xlinknz:
Stan:
frankv: Haven't read all the way back through this thread, so apologies if it's already been covered.... but

Sept 1 1983, the USSR (which later became the Russian Federation) shot down KAL007, an *unarmed* *747* that flew into its airspace, apparently without any warning.

Not to mention MH17, shot down in the Ukraine by a missile provided by Russia.

Also interesting that one of the Russian pilots was apparently killed by Turkmen on the Syrian side of the border. That says to me that Russian aviators were already hated by Turkmen in Syria, and suggests that these Turkmen had already been badly bombed by the Russians.

Under these circumstances, it was astonishingly naive or provocative for Russia to fly their military aircraft anywhere near the Turkish border. Given that Russia apparently wasn't prepared to follow up, I put my money on "stupid".




Yes and on 3 July 1988 the US shot down Airbus A380 killing 290 civilians and never apologized for doing so I don't understand your point.

Isis has weapons used on civilians deliberately and they where supplied to FSA by the US.

Aside from the fact that Russia's airbase is close to the border of Syria and Turkey and it was heading there, Russia has a very vested interest staying by the border of Syria and Turkey as Turkey supports Isis by buying oil and allegedly now human organs off them, not to mention they filter people who want to fight for ISIS to Syria Through Turkey.
Naturally Turkey wouldn't have been happy that Russia spent this week blowing up the oil supplies of Isis.


I take it you are referring to the US downing of Iran [civilian] flight 655 ?

There is a saying I have which is: 'one does not usually see war criminals on the winning side' my point being it doesn't matter how bad the good guy is its all about the bad guy...[the Russians are painted as the bad guy in this]

Back to topic, well it now seems the Turks are now saying they didn't know it was a Russian plane which implies it could have been Syrian and the precedence is we [Turkey] have already downed those and no one was upset [except Syria]. Clearly the Turks should have had similar protocols and processes in place as the US+allies have to ensure they didn't come into conflict with Russian aircraft

The end result for Turkey is 1. Economic sanctions from their largest trading partner 2. Increased bombing of the Turkman rebels [& civilians] fighting Assad.


And the end result for Russia that economic sanctions will hurt them too, and they'll have to pull their heads in with regard to their frequent excursions of military into foreign airspace, in Europe, not just in that area.  In goods and service trade. Russia exports to Turkey 4x what they import.
Stupid childish behaviour by "leaders".  Not what the world needs.



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  Reply # 1436064 27-Nov-2015 14:23
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Fred99:
And the end result for Russia that economic sanctions will hurt them too, and they'll have to pull their heads in with regard to their frequent excursions of military into foreign airspace, in Europe, not just in that area.  In goods and service trade. Russia exports to Turkey 4x what they import.
Stupid childish behaviour by "leaders".  Not what the world needs.


It just got better now according to the BBC Turkey's president said [earlier] if it had known the plane was Russian "maybe we would have warned it differently". The Russians have said they did know. It seems these "leaders" cannot help themselves not to dig themselves into holes

So it now seems 'protecting ones airspace and border integrity' is selective [which of course has always been the case]

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