What's something small that really annoys you?

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Glurp
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Reply # 1628455 13-Sep-2016 11:19

MikeB4:

Rikkitic:

I'm a strong believer in ethnic diversity but people serving the general public should be competent in the main language.

I disagree strongly,

Seriously? How can you maintain that? Surely people in a job that involves communicating with the public should be expected to speak the dominant language of the country they are in. Why should customers have to struggle to get their point across, especially in the case cited here.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage

MikeB4

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Reply # 1628468 13-Sep-2016 11:37

Rikkitic:

Seriously? How can you maintain that? Surely people in a job that involves communicating with the public should be expected to speak the dominant language of the country they are in. Why should customers have to struggle to get their point across, especially in the case cited here.

So a new comer to New Zealand is not allowed to work or start a business until they can speak English? if one of our tangata whenua was not fluid in English they cannot work?

surely you can see that is racism.

What about a deaf person who cannot understand except for sign, they cannot work?

Mike
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Geektastic

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Reply # 1628493 13-Sep-2016 12:17

MikeB4:

Rikkitic:

Seriously? How can you maintain that? Surely people in a job that involves communicating with the public should be expected to speak the dominant language of the country they are in. Why should customers have to struggle to get their point across, especially in the case cited here.

So a new comer to New Zealand is not allowed to work or start a business until they can speak English? if one of our tangata whenua was not fluid in English they cannot work?

surely you can see that is racism.

What about a deaf person who cannot understand except for sign, they cannot work?

It is hardly racism. There is no discrimination on the grounds of race, merely on the inability to speak a language anyone else understands.

MikeB4

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Reply # 1628496 13-Sep-2016 12:19

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Geektastic:

It is hardly racism. There is no discrimination on the grounds of race, merely on the inability to speak a language anyone else understands.

um what now?

Mike
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PhantomNVD

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Reply # 1628524 13-Sep-2016 13:19

MikeB4:

Rikkitic:

Seriously? How can you maintain that? Surely people in a job that involves communicating with the public should be expected to speak the dominant language of the country they are in. Why should customers have to struggle to get their point across, especially in the case cited here.

So a new comer to New Zealand is not allowed to work or start a business until they can speak English? if one of our tangata whenua was not fluid in English they cannot work?

surely you can see that is racism.

What about a deaf person who cannot understand except for sign, they cannot work?

Can that deaf person work in a call center to answer YOUR call? No. nor can someone who doesn't speak your language.

In a "non racial" way this could be restated: "could my wife who knows how to use Windows and MS Office really well be hired to code the next program/game you use even though she doesn't actually 'speak' [insert relevant programming langue]?

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Reply # 1628527 13-Sep-2016 13:30

PhantomNVD:

MikeB4:

Rikkitic:

Seriously? How can you maintain that? Surely people in a job that involves communicating with the public should be expected to speak the dominant language of the country they are in. Why should customers have to struggle to get their point across, especially in the case cited here.

So a new comer to New Zealand is not allowed to work or start a business until they can speak English? if one of our tangata whenua was not fluid in English they cannot work?

surely you can see that is racism.

What about a deaf person who cannot understand except for sign, they cannot work?

Can that deaf person work in a call center to answer YOUR call? No. nor can someone who doesn't speak your language.

In a "non racial" way this could be restated: "could my wife who knows how to use Windows and MS Office really well be hired to code the next program/game you use even though she doesn't actually 'speak' [insert relevant programming langue]?

Actually they can

Mike
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Rikkitic

Glurp
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Reply # 1628531 13-Sep-2016 13:39

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Sorry, I do not consider this racism. I truly don't. As far as I know, women in this country are not allowed to play professional male rugby. Male dancers do not find employment as ballerinas. Little people (as in someone suffering from dwarfism) will probably will not make it as Tall Blacks. And so on and so on. In all these cases, people are excluded not because of their race or sex, but because they cannot perform the job that is required. Being small of stature or having a female physique says nothing about your character or intelligence, just your capacity to carry out a specific function. For that reason, excluding such people in these cases is not considered discriminatory. I think it is misleading to suggest someone would be prevented from finding a job because they are deaf or do not speak the local language. Rather, there is a narrow range of specific jobs they should not do because their condition would be a liability for carrying out the work satisfactorily. A deaf person probably should not seek employment as an emergency telephone operator. And someone who doesn't speak the language is probably better suited to working in the kitchen than waiting on tables. There is nothing racist about this.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage

MikeB4

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Reply # 1628536 13-Sep-2016 13:48

Rikkitic:

Sorry, I do not consider this racism. I truly don't. As far as I know, women in this country are not allowed to play professional male rugby. Male dancers do not find employment as ballerinas. Little people (as in someone suffering from dwarfism) will probably will not make it as Tall Blacks. And so on and so on. In all these cases, people are excluded not because of their race or sex, but because they cannot perform the job that is required. Being small of stature or having a female physique says nothing about your character or intelligence, just your capacity to carry out a specific function. For that reason, excluding such people in these cases is not considered discriminatory. I think it is misleading to suggest someone would be prevented from finding a job because they are deaf or do not speak the local language. Rather, there is a narrow range of specific jobs they should not do because their condition would be a liability for carrying out the work satisfactorily. A deaf person probably should not seek employment as an emergency telephone operator. And someone who doesn't speak the language is probably better suited to working in the kitchen than waiting on tables. There is nothing racist about this.

Are you aware of The NZ Bill of rights , the UN Declaration etc etc etc

Mike
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Rikkitic

Glurp
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Reply # 1628544 13-Sep-2016 13:55

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And how do those apply in this case? I'm sure if I declined to hire a deaf person to answer my phones I would not be prosecuted for it. There is also such a thing as common sense.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage

MikeB4

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Reply # 1628547 13-Sep-2016 13:59

Rikkitic:

And how do those apply in this case? I'm sure if I declined to hire a deaf person to answer my phones I would not be prosecuted for it. There is also such a thing as common sense.

There is nothing preventing it except attitudes. Attitudes are the biggest barriers to equality.

Mike
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MikeAqua

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Reply # 1628575 13-Sep-2016 14:04

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Language and ethnicity are not inextricably linked. People of any given ethnicity can learn several languages. I learn a few local phrases (with mixed reception) whenever I travel overseas. I thought a certain standard of English is required to move here on a working visa?

Legally it's acceptable to advertise for choose employees capable of using any language effectively provided it is actually required for the role.

There is no reason why a person who doesn't understand English can't work in a restaurant, just not taking orders.

But surely its reasonable for a person working as wait staff to learn enough English to do their job.

There are several considerations: -

Risks associated with serious food allergies (no peanuts please),
The unpleasant effects of less serious allergies and other food intolerances,
The ability to read food hygiene instructions,
Finally, going out for a meal is supposed to be enjoyable, it shouldn't be difficult to order appropriate food.

Mike

Rikkitic

Glurp
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Reply # 1628595 13-Sep-2016 14:27

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I don't get the direction this is going. It is perfectly reasonable to expect and demand that a potential employee has the skills and the capability to do the job for which that person is being hired. If I need someone to work with the public, of course I am going to expect reasonable language skills. Why should I hire someone who doesn't understand English? That doesn't even make sense. It is like hiring Manuel in Fawlty Towers.

To return to the extreme example of a deaf person, we happen to have a very capable Member of Parliament who is deaf, though she did have to shame them into providing the extra facilities she required. If I needed someone to answer my phones, and a prospective employee who was deaf had the technology to enable them to carry out the function, there would be no reason not to hire that person, but if I had to hire a second person to translate for the first one, it also wouldn't make sense. It is not discrimination to refuse employment to someone if that person is simply not capable of doing what the job requires.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage

Fred99

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Reply # 1628598 13-Sep-2016 14:35

Rikkitic:

It is like hiring Manuel in Fawlty Towers.

Precisely, perhaps. Hiring a German who couldn't speak Spanish to play Manuel proves a point for someone here, I'm just not sure who though...

MikeB4

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Reply # 1628601 13-Sep-2016 14:38

back to the original question here

Attitudes

Mike
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BlueShift

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Reply # 1628602 13-Sep-2016 14:39

Fred99:

Rikkitic:

It is like hiring Manuel in Fawlty Towers.

Precisely, perhaps. Hiring a German who couldn't speak Spanish to play Manuel proves a point for someone here, I'm just not sure who though...

As long as you don't mention the war. (BTW Andrew Sachs is English)

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