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  Reply # 1498160 23-Feb-2016 22:16
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Technofreak:

 

Trump is a maniac, however statements like these resonate very strongly with a lot of people in the US.

 

"a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on."

 

Look what's happening in Europe with the millions of refugees. They have arrived in such numbers they cannot be assimilated without there being problems. You only have the read some of the stories starting come out of Europe. I'm very afraid it won 't be long before big problems erupt in Europe. The people in the US are very much aware of whats going on in Europe and they wont want that happen in the US.

 

 

 

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you,” Trump gestured toward members of the audience at his June 16 announcement speech from Trump Tower. “They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

 

I think he's way off line with how he portrays the Mexicans. But there's no doubt there's been some problems with the Mexican border.  I'd say a lot of US citizens would be happy with a much more robust border.

 

 

 

“ISIS is making a tremendous amount of money because of the oil that they took away, they have some in Syria, they have some in Iraq, I would bomb the sh-- out of them,” Trump told a Fort Dodge, Iowa, rally on Nov. 12. 

 

“I would just bomb those suckers, and that's right, I'd blow up the pipes, I'd blow up the refineries, I'd blow up every single inch, there would be nothing left.”

 

Trump is being decisive about ISIS. This will also strike a chord with voters. The people of the US have never have a modern war fought in their land, they don't want one now.  Sept 11 was a big wake up call, they will do what they need to prevent another event like this.

 

 

 

If he got elected he is still one person, congress has a lot of power. In fact as President it's more that he can veto some congress action rather than make the US do stuff that would be silly. I think you'd find he would be hamstrung in many ways.

 

 

 

 

 

jonothan18: And I'm quite happy to admit that I think considerably lesser of those who find him appealing - in my mind, such support indicates someone who is fundamentally disconnected with reality. It also confirms my sense of how retarded the US populace is (or at least Republican supporters) and how $@#$ed their political system is.

 

I think you're being a unfair. The US is a big country, the average citizen there doesn't need to look outside their borders. They tend to be a bit insular and as a result some certainly don't view the world as we would. That doesn't make them retarded. Also In my experience their left wing politics is almost to the right of our right wing.

 

 

Makes good sense. Something to look forward to after the Olympics and WRC!


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  Reply # 1498386 24-Feb-2016 11:22
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Rikkitic:

 

Geektastic:

 

When they have blown up the first target in NZ or beheaded the first off duty soldier, it will be interesting to see whether your flippant dismissal remains....

 

 

Give it a rest mate. Either you have principles or you don't. My beliefs are not going to be dictated by some fanatic with a bomb. I don't care if they are breaking down my door. I know the difference between right and wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK well we will look forward to seeing how they stand up in due course.

 

I have principles too - if someone is visiting violence on me, my country etc then they are fully deserving of far more in return until such time as they see the error of their ways.






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  Reply # 1498399 24-Feb-2016 11:31
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Sideface:

 

Geektastic: <snip> When they have blown up the first target in NZ or beheaded the first off duty soldier, it will be interesting to see whether your flippant dismissal remains....

 

I despise and fear ISIS and Trump for the same reasons - they are are both powerful, totally ruthless, totally amoral, and totally convinced that only their narrow viewpoint is correct.

 

You and I are much more likely to be killed by the actions of Donald Trump than by ISIS.

 

 

I disagree.

 

Unlike the majority of commenters I have both worked in parts of the government where I perhaps had access to more information about this sort of thing than most do and also lived through a terrorist campaign that saw death and destruction on the streets of the country I was living in for decades.

 

Most New Zealanders have the luxury of viewing these things in the abstract since they have as yet not arrived here. Rest assured, many people's liberal views will cease when the first terrorist bomb goes off in a Queen Street shop or at a rugby game etc.

 

It's reached Australia already - if you think it won't happen here, sadly you are likely to be incorrect. The harder it gets for the terrorists elsewhere, the more they will look for places where it is not so hard.

 

These threats are very real and to believe that they just won't happen here because we are all so nice is verging on naive.

 

Trump is at least likely to be tempered by the Senate etc if he is elected. ISIS and their fellow travellers are not likely to be tempered by anything.






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  Reply # 1498400 24-Feb-2016 11:35
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Technofreak:

 

jonothan18: And I'm quite happy to admit that I think considerably lesser of those who find him appealing - in my mind, such support indicates someone who is fundamentally disconnected with reality. It also confirms my sense of how retarded the US populace is (or at least Republican supporters) and how $@#$ed their political system is.

 

I think you're being a unfair. The US is a big country, the average citizen there doesn't need to look outside their borders. They tend to be a bit insular and as a result some certainly don't view the world as we would. That doesn't make them retarded. Also In my experience their left wing politics is almost to the right of our right wing.

 

 

The average US citizen may not think they need to look outside their borders - but this is truly deluded thinking, given the geopolitical reality facing their country. Whatever the reason for their insularity doesn't make it any less unfortunate or foolish - and this isn't just a relativity thing about seeing the world differently, but something far more fundamental missing from their critical faculties.

 

That said, happy to rescind the use of the word "retarded" - poor choice of words! Perhaps "ignorant" would be less inflammatory?

 

 


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  Reply # 1498403 24-Feb-2016 11:38
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Geektastic:

 

 

 

OK well we will look forward to seeing how they stand up in due course.

 

I have principles too - if someone is visiting violence on me, my country etc then they are fully deserving of far more in return until such time as they see the error of their ways.

 

 

 

 

Even if said violence is perpetrated by a very small radical portion of some race\religion\nation? "They" should all be punished for the actions of a few right? It's not like the collateral damage will breed an ever increasing pool of radicals right?


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  Reply # 1498405 24-Feb-2016 11:52
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Geektastic:

 

 

 

Unlike the majority of commenters I have both worked in parts of the government where I perhaps had access to more information about this sort of thing than most do and also lived through a terrorist campaign that saw death and destruction on the streets of the country I was living in for decades.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And did escalating the fighting cause it to end? I first arrived in Dublin the day before the Omagh bombing. I was no more afraid to be walking around the day after than I was the day before, despite the sudden appearance of armed police on every street corner. Being afraid and trying to hit them back gives them exactly what they want. Was I going to waste a week in Ireland hiding in my hotel room?

 

In the end, it was everyone deciding to stop fighting that, well, stopped the fighting.

 

If they (Muslim extremists or otherwise) come here, they should be treated the same as any other common criminal. I'm not advocating we should pat them on the back, give them our sympathy and let them go - for all I care they can be made to sew frilly knickers and eat bacon for breakfast 7 days a week. But in elevating them to special status we only reinforce their attempts to make themselves seem like holy warriors fighting a holy war that other true believers should join. If we show them up as socially awkward losers who are angry because they can't get laid, then that's when they lose.





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  Reply # 1498408 24-Feb-2016 11:58
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Geektastic:

 

Unlike the majority of commenters I have ... lived through a terrorist campaign that saw death and destruction on the streets of the country I was living in for decades.

 

 

Let's focus on this for a moment. I assume you're referring to the IRA bombing campaign in the UK?

 

Why did the IRA hate the British enough that they felt violence was the best solution?

 

How well did Britain's strategy and tactics work in controlling/reducing the Irish problem?

 

What was the solution that put an end to the terrorism?

 

Perhaps if we can apply these answers to ISIS, that problem might also be solved.

 

 


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  Reply # 1498429 24-Feb-2016 12:19
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frankv:

 

Let's focus on this for a moment. I assume you're referring to the IRA bombing campaign in the UK?

 

Why did the IRA hate the British enough that they felt violence was the best solution?

 

How well did Britain's strategy and tactics work in controlling/reducing the Irish problem?

 

What was the solution that put an end to the terrorism?

 

Perhaps if we can apply these answers to ISIS, that problem might also be solved.

 

 

I'm not sure you could negotiate with ISIS the same way it was possible to negotiate with the IRA or it's offshoots. But you can't bomb them into oblivion either, they would simply dissipate around the Middle East and Europe.

 

First and foremost they need to be starved of recruits and that's an ideological battle. Groups with such extremist views always wither and die in the end.

 

 


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  Reply # 1498432 24-Feb-2016 12:22
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frankv:

 

Perhaps if we can apply these answers to ISIS, that problem might also be solved.

 

 

The Soviets created the Taliban by invading Afghanistan. The Collation of the Willing created ISIS by invading Iraq.

 

Counter-insurgency campaigns take decades to produce results and don't play well with the immediate results and short attention spans of current media, politicians and populations.

 

Just like the Irish could claim grievances going back to the 17th century, so can Muslims claim similar back to the Crusades.

 

You may be able to remove ISIS, but history suggests another so called intervention will create similar groups.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1498447 24-Feb-2016 12:47
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jonathan18: The average US citizen may not think they need to look outside their borders - but this is truly deluded thinking, given the geopolitical reality facing their country. Whatever the reason for their insularity doesn't make it any less unfortunate or foolish - and this isn't just a relativity thing about seeing the world differently, but something far more fundamental missing from their critical faculties.

 

That said, happy to rescind the use of the word "retarded" - poor choice of words! Perhaps "ignorant" would be less inflammatory?

 

Have you been to the US and spent time talking to the locals. Your comments lead me to believe you haven't.  They're certainly not ignorant.

 

It's not a matter of whether or not they think they need to look outside their borders, it's that they don't need to think about it. The US is big enough for them not to even need to look outside. Less than 46% of US citizens have a passport compared to over 75% of New Zealanders. Up until about 10 years ago was the number was about 22% less than half what it is now.  The main reason for the sudden increase was the need to have a passport to fly to Canada and Mexico.  Basically they don't need to travel outside of North America.

 

Here a quote from a Forbes magazine article printed in 2012 which was talking about the increase in US passport numbers and why the numbers were low by world standards.

 

You could fit mainland France, plus Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark and Luxembourg (total about 261,000 square miles) inside of Texas (269,000 square miles) and still have room for a passel of Alps. It takes nearly an hour longer to fly between New York and LA (about 5 hours) than between Lisbon and Helsinki (about 4:10), and the spaces in between are vast and varied. To paraphrase the (oft misquoted) line from the Treasure of the Sierra Madre: “Passports? We don’t need no stinkin’ passports!”

 

When you start to understand the size of the US you start to understand why they think like they do.  Nothing to do with being retarded, ignorant or "something missing from their critical faculties" as you put it.

 

You say geopolitical reality, really? What politics are geographically close enough to worry the average US citizen? There's the Atlantic on one side the Pacific on the other Canada to the north and Mexico to the south.   Other than Mexico there's not much close by that really affects the average US citizen. The US is geographically quite separate from most parts of the world.





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  Reply # 1498474 24-Feb-2016 13:41
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So how about this for an anti-ISIS campaign? You'll need to imagine the visuals; think Shutterstock images of happy people --

 

This is Allen. Like most of teenagers, he was shy and awkward. While at university earning his degree in electronic engineering, he met Alice. Today, he loves his job designing microelectronics, as well as Alice and their three beautiful children.

 

This is Richard. He was shy and awkward too. He joined ISIS, and not long after, Richard died screaming, trying to hold his guts in with the hand still attached to his body. He never saw a naked woman. Be an Allen, not a D***.

 

And the cut-down version for the 15 second slot would be: This is Alice. This is ISIS. Wouldn't you rather be screwed by Alice than ISIS?

 

 





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  Reply # 1498538 24-Feb-2016 14:39
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Technofreak:

 

 

 

Have you been to the US and spent time talking to the locals. Your comments lead me to believe you haven't.  They're certainly not ignorant.

 

 

That depends on how you measure it. I spent my formative years there. Many ordinary people you meet in the street may not seem especially ignorant at first, and some truly are not, but those who make asses of themselves on whatever has taken the place of the Jerry Springer show also all have a vote. As do the rappers who can barely speak English, and the many, many others who not only have never heard of Nu Zeeland and have no idea where it is, but barely know that Canada is north of them and Mexico to the south (and they probably think the Panama Canal is in the Philippines, wherever that is). Have you heard some of the statements of Ben Carson? This man, a presumably educated neurosurgeon who thinks he should be President, gives ignorance a whole new definition. He may know something about medicine, but he sure doesn't know anything about the world. And I won't even start on the majority of Americans who genuinely believe that angels are real and the world started 6,000 years ago. There is an entire theme park in Kentucky, very expensive and very elaborate, that is dedicated to American ignorance. The few with brains made it to the moon. The rest think it is a conspiracy.

 

Technofreak:

 

It's not a matter of whether or not they think they need to look outside their borders, it's that they don't need to think about it. 

 

 

If they had have thought about it, maybe the Twin Towers would still be standing.

 

Technofreak:

 

 

 

When you start to understand the size of the US you start to understand why they think like they do.  Nothing to do with being retarded, ignorant or "something missing from their critical faculties" as you put it.

 

You say geopolitical reality, really? What politics are geographically close enough to worry the average US citizen? There's the Atlantic on one side the Pacific on the other Canada to the north and Mexico to the south.   Other than Mexico there's not much close by that really affects the average US citizen. The US is geographically quite separate from most parts of the world.

 

 

I think 9/11 affected the average US citizen. Their 'geographical isolation' sure didn't stop that from happening.

 

 





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  Reply # 1498544 24-Feb-2016 14:49
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jonathan18:

 

Technofreak:

 

jonothan18: And I'm quite happy to admit that I think considerably lesser of those who find him appealing - in my mind, such support indicates someone who is fundamentally disconnected with reality. It also confirms my sense of how retarded the US populace is (or at least Republican supporters) and how $@#$ed their political system is.

 

I think you're being a unfair. The US is a big country, the average citizen there doesn't need to look outside their borders. They tend to be a bit insular and as a result some certainly don't view the world as we would. That doesn't make them retarded. Also In my experience their left wing politics is almost to the right of our right wing.

 

 

The average US citizen may not think they need to look outside their borders - but this is truly deluded thinking, given the geopolitical reality facing their country. Whatever the reason for their insularity doesn't make it any less unfortunate or foolish - and this isn't just a relativity thing about seeing the world differently, but something far more fundamental missing from their critical faculties.

 

That said, happy to rescind the use of the word "retarded" - poor choice of words! Perhaps "ignorant" would be less inflammatory?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree the adjustment to the language is considerably less offensive and much more accurate. 

 

The number of people I know from NZ who hate Americans despite having never BEEN to America is astonishing. My sister was a typical example. I had been to the US a lot, and deal with American companies and people most days. She had never been. She had all the same old tired cliches for Americans that were almost entirely at odds to my own personal experience. She ended up in an unexpected stop over in the US one trip up to the UK, and then enjoyed it so much she rebooked on the way back and spent 10 days in various parts, and came back with a completely different opinion, one that reflected my own views. She was pretty honest about her own foolish and ignorant comments. I find Kiwi's are as likely to be like this, as any American. It's similar when South Islanders hate Aucklanders so much. 

 

I think when you realize how huge America is, and how little they actually need to understand about the world in their daily lives, then their lack of understanding and knowledge makes more sense I think. In NZ we NEED to know about the world, since 90% of everything that happens here is seriously affected by other countries. All our sport involves other countries, we import so much etc etc etc. 


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  Reply # 1498547 24-Feb-2016 14:53
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Geektastic:

 

 

 

Unlike the majority of commenters I have both worked in parts of the government where I perhaps had access to more information about this sort of thing than most do and also lived through a terrorist campaign that saw death and destruction on the streets of the country I was living in for decades.

 

 

 

 

That must have been very traumatic for you. It explains your ideas, but it doesn't make them right. If someone tries to smash me, I will do what I can to defend myself, but I will not, like that ignorant woman did, refuse to sit next to a Sikh on the plane just because he looks different. I will not judge people on the basis of their appearance and I will not refuse to give strangers the benefit of the doubt. Are you suggesting that if someone gets beheaded in the street, or a shopping plaza gets blown up, that we should all grab guns and rush out and start mowing down everyone that we think might look like a Muslim? What are you suggesting?

 

 





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  Reply # 1498553 24-Feb-2016 14:58
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SaltyNZ:

So how about this for an anti-ISIS campaign? You'll need to imagine the visuals; think Shutterstock images of happy people --


This is Allen. Like most of teenagers, he was shy and awkward. While at university earning his degree in electronic engineering, he met Alice. Today, he loves his job designing microelectronics, as well as Alice and their three beautiful children.


This is Richard. He was shy and awkward too. He joined ISIS, and not long after, Richard died screaming, trying to hold his guts in with the hand still attached to his body. He never saw a naked woman. Be an Allen, not a D***.


And the cut-down version for the 15 second slot would be: This is Alice. This is ISIS. Wouldn't you rather be screwed by Alice than ISIS?


 



ISIS is pitching to Richard. Richard gets power over other human beings, some new friends, a company car, regular salary, and a wife +optional sex slaves and it is all perfectly legal!

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