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  Reply # 1604873 5-Aug-2016 10:42
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Rikkitic:

 

If you want to bring morals into this, some would argue that globalisation doesn't benefit the poor or workers at all, just big corporate interests. In fact, it makes things worse for ordinary people, whether they are in the 'free' world or not. Do people in poverty 'benefit' from jobs that pay starvation wages and force children into work? 

 

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Globalization/DoesGlobaliz_HelpPoor.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

We could of course not trade with their countries and they would  have no jobs.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 1604874 5-Aug-2016 10:45
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dejadeadnz:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

China isn't NZ's largest trading partner - they were our largest export market for a short period (dairy boom).  NZ has about $125 billion in bilateral trade with the free world. 

 

  

 

 

 

 

That's a profoundly intellectually dishonest comparison. The discussion was between the US and China. And when people speak of trading partners and who's more important/not important etc, no one looks at the largest country and then say "Oh yeah, they aren't that important compared to the every other dollar of our overseas export". Well, duh.

 

And what a stunning surprise, the Treasury agrees with me on China being our largest trading partner. But you are apparently the expert. And the last available data set from the Treasury tells us that China took 22.2% of our total exports. But who cares, right? We still have the other 77.8% without them!

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

Your link is 2013 data - based on export trade at the peak of the dairy boom.  I presume you'll do the intellectually honest thing, and apologise.

 

https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/opportunities-outlook/economic-overview

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1604877 5-Aug-2016 10:49
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dejadeadnz:

 

MikeB4:

 

 

 

Your post was devalued totally by this rubbish "bilateral trade with the free world"

 

 

Well spotted. The economic, moral and other fundamental disconnects exhibited by that poster is nothing short of astounding. China's increasing importance to this country's economy is abundantly clear in the eyes of anyone able to perform a basic Google search -- our exports to them and bilateral trade has been steadily increasing and hardly attributable to just a diary boom. And if some of the increases are attributable to a diary boom, so what? This country is still massively dependent on dairy commodity exports, which is usually first or second (alongside tourism) in terms of export value and has consistently been the case for a significant period. Apparently, in someone's view, this country can just miraculously perform an economic pivot and change these fundamentals within a day or two!

 

Then there are the moral disconnects. He apparently suffers from the kind of delusional thinking that equally affects the Dumpf and Bernie Sanders supporters on trade. In their magical world, globalisation should be reversed and we should close our doors/pivot away from so called "unfree" people/countries, nevermind the economic realities and nevermind international legal obligations (be it the bilateral kind, e.g. the China-NZ FTA, or the multilateral kind, e.g. WTO agreements). They also suffer from the moral weakness of failing to understand that as part of a world that took significant advantage of previous inequalities to rise to the top, severely curtailing trade with some of these "unfree" places or any other place perceived to be not quite playing by the rules will leave many of the poor in such developing countries destitute or worse. The way to advance human rights, achieving better quality in bilateral and multilateral trade, and to make things fairer for everyone is through having more engagement, more transparency, and talking like civilised adults. Not via pouting or arbitrary moralised divisions between us and them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Extending / projecting to launch that sermon based on my comment is about as crooked a thing as I've read on GZ.  Shame.

 

 


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  Reply # 1604880 5-Aug-2016 10:50
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Fred99:

 

dejadeadnz:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

China isn't NZ's largest trading partner - they were our largest export market for a short period (dairy boom).  NZ has about $125 billion in bilateral trade with the free world. 

 

  

 

 

 

 

That's a profoundly intellectually dishonest comparison. The discussion was between the US and China. And when people speak of trading partners and who's more important/not important etc, no one looks at the largest country and then say "Oh yeah, they aren't that important compared to the every other dollar of our overseas export". Well, duh.

 

And what a stunning surprise, the Treasury agrees with me on China being our largest trading partner. But you are apparently the expert. And the last available data set from the Treasury tells us that China took 22.2% of our total exports. But who cares, right? We still have the other 77.8% without them!

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

Your link is 2013 data - based on export trade at the peak of the dairy boom.  I presume you'll do the intellectually honest thing, and apologise.

 

https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/opportunities-outlook/economic-overview

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A market of greater than 1 Billion persons is of no importance I guess. Luckily NZTE thinks differently.

 

 

 

https://www.nzte.govt.nz/en/invest/statistics/





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 1604890 5-Aug-2016 10:56
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MikeB4:

 

Fred99:

 

dejadeadnz:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

China isn't NZ's largest trading partner - they were our largest export market for a short period (dairy boom).  NZ has about $125 billion in bilateral trade with the free world. 

 

  

 

 

 

 

That's a profoundly intellectually dishonest comparison. The discussion was between the US and China. And when people speak of trading partners and who's more important/not important etc, no one looks at the largest country and then say "Oh yeah, they aren't that important compared to the every other dollar of our overseas export". Well, duh.

 

And what a stunning surprise, the Treasury agrees with me on China being our largest trading partner. But you are apparently the expert. And the last available data set from the Treasury tells us that China took 22.2% of our total exports. But who cares, right? We still have the other 77.8% without them!

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

Your link is 2013 data - based on export trade at the peak of the dairy boom.  I presume you'll do the intellectually honest thing, and apologise.

 

https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/opportunities-outlook/economic-overview

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A market of greater than 1 Billion persons is of no importance I guess. Luckily NZTE thinks differently.

 

 

 

https://www.nzte.govt.nz/en/invest/statistics/

 

 

 

 

I never said it was of "no importance" - you're clearly suggesting that's what I meant, now that's an intellectually dishonest argument, yet here you are accusing me.

 

Now that's delusional.


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  Reply # 1604897 5-Aug-2016 11:06
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Fred99:

 

 

 

I never said it was of "no importance" - you're clearly suggesting that's what I meant, now that's an intellectually dishonest argument, yet here you are accusing me.

 

Now that's delusional.

 

 

 

 

accusing you huh???

 

nope merely putting another perspective, but OK I will leave you to it.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 1604925 5-Aug-2016 11:20
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MikeB4:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

I never said it was of "no importance" - you're clearly suggesting that's what I meant, now that's an intellectually dishonest argument, yet here you are accusing me.

 

Now that's delusional.

 

 

 

 

accusing you huh???

 

nope merely putting another perspective, but OK I will leave you to it.

 

 

 

 

I'm offering you an apology.  The "intellectually dishonest" comment / accusation was made by another poster.


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  Reply # 1604931 5-Aug-2016 11:28
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Fred99:

 

 

 

 Your link is 2013 data - based on export trade at the peak of the dairy boom.  I presume you'll do the intellectually honest thing, and apologise.

 

https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/opportunities-outlook/economic-overview

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pal, you might still like to read the Treasury data I linked to. 

 

 

 

1. It's NOT 2013 data. It was up to to and inclusive of September 2014 and it's part of the Treasury's 2015 economic and financial overview. Stop making things up.

 

2. Regardless of who is our largest trading partner now, your idea of comparing the significant contribution of one country (which still ranks as our second biggest export market and amounted to some 19 billion dollars plus) to the rest of ALL our multilateral trade combined, is fundamentally dishonest. I pulled out the Treasury's 2015 report on the honest assumption that they had no more up-to-date data. However, unlikely you, I am not making up what was cited in my opponent's data set.

 

3. And it was you who introduced the "free world" nonsense into your non-sequitur comparison. The intent was blatant and obvious.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1604935 5-Aug-2016 11:39
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Fred99:

 

 

 

 

 

I'm offering you an apology.  The "intellectually dishonest" comment / accusation was made by another poster.

 

 

 

 

Absolutely no need to apologise my friend. No offense taken.

 

Cheers





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


Glurp
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  Reply # 1604940 5-Aug-2016 11:49
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People can be wrong about things. They can be mistaken, or misinformed, or confused, or even just willfully ignorant. Or maybe they are not wrong, after all. Regardless, the 'wrongness' of someone's position can be adequately challenged using logic, facts, interpretation, or just simple disagreement. There is no need for emotive language that impugns the intelligence, honesty or morals of the other party. Apart from that, this thread is about Mr Drumph and what his possible election as President of the USA might do to the world. Let us return to the topic.

 

 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1604942 5-Aug-2016 11:54
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dejadeadnz:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

 Your link is 2013 data - based on export trade at the peak of the dairy boom.  I presume you'll do the intellectually honest thing, and apologise.

 

https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/opportunities-outlook/economic-overview

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pal, you might still like to read the Treasury data I linked to. 

 

 

 

1. It's NOT 2013 data. It was up to to and inclusive of September 2014 and it's part of the Treasury's 2015 economic and financial overview. Stop making things up.

 

2. Regardless of who is our largest trading partner now, your idea of comparing the significant contribution of one country (which still ranks as our second biggest export market and amounted to some 19 billion dollars plus) to the rest of ALL our multilateral trade combined, is fundamentally dishonest. I pulled out the Treasury's 2015 report on the honest assumption that they had no more up-to-date data. However, unlikely you, I am not making up what was cited in my opponent's data set.

 

3. And it was you who introduced the "free world" nonsense into your non-sequitur comparison. The intent was blatant and obvious.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please don't call me "pal".  We're clearly not friends.

 

1) Please don't accuse me of "making things up".  The March 2016 stats overview states: "The top export destination was Australia ($13.0 billion), followed by China ($11.5 billion)."

 

2) It's not fundamentally dishonest to point out that China:NZ bilateral trade is < 20% of NZ total bilateral trade. Again you falsely accuse me of "making things up".

 

3) The "free world" comment might be nonsense to you.  You've thrown in all kinds of accusation about Trump / Sanders being relevant to what you've assumed I meant by my "free world" comment.  If Trump was to win (unlikely) and if he was able to carry out his threats of trade retaliation against China (unlikely IMO - even an idiot like Trump would probably ultimately want to listen to advisers / trade representatives).  If you doubt that the Chinese government has and will continue to use (threat of restriction to)  trade access to further their political agenda globally and to shield against criticism of their human rights abuses domestically, then you're delusional.

 

 


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  Reply # 1604943 5-Aug-2016 11:54
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Rikkitic:

 

People can be wrong about things. They can be mistaken, or misinformed, or confused, or even just willfully ignorant. Or maybe they are not wrong, after all. Regardless, the 'wrongness' of someone's position can be adequately challenged using logic, facts, interpretation, or just simple disagreement. There is no need for emotive language that impugns the intelligence, honesty or morals of the other party. Apart from that, this thread is about Mr Drumph and what his possible election as President of the USA might do to the world. Let us return to the topic.

 

 

 

 

 

Point taken. Meanwhile, it looks like even the conservatives are in full on panic mode. 1/3 of voters less likely to support Mr Idiot after attack on the Khans.


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  Reply # 1604945 5-Aug-2016 11:58
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Fred99:

 

 

 

 

 

Please don't call me "pal".  We're clearly not friends.

 

1) Please don't accuse me of "making things up".  The March 2016 stats overview states: "The top export destination was Australia ($13.0 billion), followed by China ($11.5 billion)."

 

2) It's not fundamentally dishonest to point out that China:NZ bilateral trade is < 20% of NZ total bilateral trade. Again you falsely accuse me of "making things up".

 

3) The "free world" comment might be nonsense to you.  You've thrown in all kinds of accusation about Trump / Sanders being relevant to what you've assumed I meant by my "free world" comment.  If Trump was to win (unlikely) and if he was able to carry out his threats of trade retaliation against china (unlikely IMO - even an idiot like Trump would probably ultimately want to listen to advisers / trade representatives.  If you doubt that the Chinese government has and will continue to use (threat of restriction to)  trade access to further their political agenda globally and to shield against criticism of their human rights abuses domestically, then you're delusional.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wasn't going to keep responding (and this is my last post on this).

 

1. I've already addressed that point. I honestly assumed 2015's report was the latest available dataset. Regardless, it doesn't excuse you from claiming that it contained only 2013 data. It's plain wrong.

 

2. The comparison you made is not an apples-to-apples comparison. I will leave people to decide why you chose such an obviously inapt comparison as I've already made my views clear.

 

 

 

I'm out of this debate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1604951 5-Aug-2016 12:05
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Rikkitic:

 

<snip>  ... this thread is about Mr Drumph and what his possible election as President of the USA might do to the world. Let us return to the topic.

 

 

 

+1

 

Meanwhile, back at the ranch:

 

A guide to the conspiracy theories about Donald Trump

CBS News August 4, 2016

These theories include:

 

  • He has no intention of becoming president
  • He cut a deal with the Clintons
  • Donald Trump is working for Putin's Kremlin
  • Trump might be looking to drop out

Worth a read  wink





Sideface


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  Reply # 1604961 5-Aug-2016 12:16
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A really good (yet totally scary) explanation of Trump's success

 

 

 

As the NYT is behind a (albeit) porous paywall, I'll quote a few relevant bits here. The emphases are mine.

 

 

 

 

Robert P. Jones, the C.E.O. of the Public Religion Research Institute, wrote in an email responding to my inquiry:

 

 

Although openness to authoritarian leadership is a very difficult thing to measure, a recent P.R.R.I./Brookings survey found that there may be more receptivity than conventional wisdom might suggest.

 

 

The P.R.R.I. survey measured the authoritarian leanings of voters versus the autonomous leaning of voters by using a series of questions that ask what values parents seek to instill in their children.

 

 

 

The survey found that

 

 

A majority of Americans prefer children to have respect for elders (74 percent) rather than independence (26 percent); to demonstrate good manners (70 percent) rather than curiosity (30 percent); and to be well-behaved (61 percent) rather than creative (38 percent).

 

 

P.R.R.I. ranked respondents on a scale of highly autonomous, autonomous, mixed, authoritarian and highly authoritarian:

 

 

A majority of Americans favor either highly authoritarian (31 percent) or authoritarian (26 percent) traits. In contrast, roughly one-quarter express preferences for either highly autonomous (10 percent) or autonomous (13 percent) traits. One in five Americans (20 percent) has mixed preferences.

 

 

Most notably, according to P.R.R.I.,

 

 

Americans who have a highly authoritarian orientation are more than twice as likely as those who have a highly autonomous orientation to say the country needs a leader who is willing to break the rules to set things right (58 percent vs. 22 percent).

 


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