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  Reply # 1477584 23-Jan-2016 22:44
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TwoSeven:

 

Geektastic: There's no genuine gap.

If you measure a man and a woman with the same years of experience, same qualifications and same talent. Also ignore things like nipping off to have kids, causing inconvenience and cost to businesses and thus making yourself less attractive as an employee.

What the ranters want would eventually result in higher pay for women just for being women.

My wife earned well into six figures for the last 3 years, so know it's perfectly possible for women to earn far more than many men.

 

 

 

I think you may be doing what many of us blokes do and repeating stuff we may have been told by other blokes, rather than actually looking at empirical studies that probably disagree with your initial statement.  I might point out that what is possible for a few, isn't necessarily the norm for everyone else.

 

I support gender equality and would probably call myself a feminist - when I started to learn about why [gender] inequality exists I started to notice more of it around, from the way people talk, the jokes people make and often the way they are treated by the media.  I think stereotyping is big part of this issue, it generally runs along the line of women cant do something or are bad/men can do it or are good - usually with some kind of justification attached to it.  I would like to see these stereotypes broken down and gotten rid of. I think people should have the opportunity to be everything they can be, without having to deal with peoples perception of their capabilities that are based solely on what gender they are.

 

I think gender can be defined as the 'social attributes and opportunities associated with being male or female'. So what us ranters are really asking for is that both genders have 'equal rights, opportunities and responsibilities and that these should not depend on whether someone is born male or female' - neither does it mean that men and women have to become the same as each other. I think that we also need to recognise there are industries where the equality goes against men, but I would suggest that the majority of the inequality is directed against women

 

Personally, I would like to see more women in software engineering, I would like to see more female F1 drivers, women's soccer given more time on TV, more scientists, more mathematicians and physicists, electronics experts, engineers and mechanics - the opportunity for women to be able to play the leading role in movies (that are not just about relationships) are the superhero (and the list goes on). 

 

Given that I think gender equality still has a long way to go, I would find it very hard to say there isn't a pay gap at all.

 

 

 

 

Firstly, let me state that I care not one whit whether there is a gap or not. I know many well paid women (I'm married to one who will probably earn more than I do every year for the rest of our working lives) so there are no barriers to women who WANT to earn.

 

That is good enough for me. I have very little interest in the modern obsession with 'equality'. Equality of opportunity is fine. Equality of outcomes is a nonsense.

 

Personally I preferred it when there were less women in the office but I appreciate that is a lost battle!






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  Reply # 1477586 23-Jan-2016 22:54
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Geektastic:

 

 

 

Personally I preferred it when there were less women in the office but I appreciate that is a lost battle!

 

 

 

 

Usually I'm one for freedom of speech and opinion around this subject.. but that's just not something acceptable to say.

 

In fact, that's almost the epitome of the systemic gender issues in IT. 


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1477615 24-Jan-2016 01:40
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jmh:

 

Geektastic: There's no genuine gap.

If you measure a man and a woman with the same years of experience, same qualifications and same talent. Also ignore things like nipping off to have kids, causing inconvenience and cost to businesses and thus making yourself less attractive as an employee.

What the ranters want would eventually result in higher pay for women just for being women.

My wife earned well into six figures for the last 3 years, so know it's perfectly possible for women to earn far more than many men.

 

I guess all of those who do OE or are casual contracting should also be paid less because of the lower number of hours they have clocked in.  In fact, people who stay in companies a long time should be paid more than those who leave every 3 to 4 years, which is an inconvenience to the business.  Funny enough, it doesn't seem to work that way.

 

Punishing a woman for taking a couple of years off, in a career often lasting 40+ years, with lower pay for her whole life seems a bit mean.

 

My own experience is that women, overall, are paid less because they don't push hard enough for the top jobs and don't ask for pay rises.  I see this all the time.  When looking at job adverts, men tend to apply when they meet about half of the criteria.  Many women won't apply unless they meet all of them, so in the end they take fewer risks and don't get the rewards.  Once coached and mentored to aim higher and ask for raises, they can achieve better jobs and pay.

 

There is also a pay gap that gay men face too:

 

http://www.gaynz.com/blogs/redqueen/?p=8867

 

And I'd hazard to guess, based on my own experience, that many of us (myself included) we don't push for pay rises because we believe if we do the right thing, work hard, contribute and do some over time without complaining that eventually being a 'good little soldier' will pay off and we'll be rewarded accordingly. The trouble is that it never happens, we aren't promoted, the extra work done to earn brownie points is over looked/ignored so in the end you basically end up where I was which was a stagnant wage for 3 years before eventually I quit because I had enough of it all. What there needs to be is a change in corporate culture - where dick waving, chest beating and 'hard nose negotiating' is thrown out in favour of a system of merit that doesn't involve of 'who can negotiate the best' being the deciding factor instead of the persons qualifications and what they've contributed. To HR, if you can track every single infractions and mistake that an employee makes then you should be equally able to track every positive contribution the person makes as well.





Laptop: Surface Book 2 (Intel i7, 8GB RAM, 265GB SSD)

 

Desktop: 

 

Smartphone: Samsung Galaxy S8 Plus

 

Additional devices: Xbox One S 'Minecraft Special Edition', Ubiquiti USG, Ubiquiti UniFI AP AC HD

 


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  Reply # 1477622 24-Jan-2016 07:01
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Remuneration should be based on the position. It should not be based on gender, race etc.

Some may try to deny for what ever reason but inequality exists and until people genuinely wake up
It will continue.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1477715 24-Jan-2016 11:12
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Rappelle:

 

Geektastic:

 

 

 

Personally I preferred it when there were less women in the office but I appreciate that is a lost battle!

 

 

 

 

Usually I'm one for freedom of speech and opinion around this subject.. but that's just not something acceptable to say.

 

In fact, that's almost the epitome of the systemic gender issues in IT. 

 

 

 

 

"Acceptable"? What, we have Thought Police now, do we?






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  Reply # 1477716 24-Jan-2016 11:13
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MikeB4: Remuneration should be based on the position. It should not be based on gender, race etc.

Some may try to deny for what ever reason but inequality exists and until people genuinely wake up
It will continue.

 

 

 

This is all very well but I note that there are very few specific examples ever quoted of two people who have the same age, experience, qualifications and TALENT doing the same job where one is paid less just for being a woman.






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  Reply # 1477717 24-Jan-2016 11:15
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kawaii:

 

jmh:

 

Geektastic: There's no genuine gap.

If you measure a man and a woman with the same years of experience, same qualifications and same talent. Also ignore things like nipping off to have kids, causing inconvenience and cost to businesses and thus making yourself less attractive as an employee.

What the ranters want would eventually result in higher pay for women just for being women.

My wife earned well into six figures for the last 3 years, so know it's perfectly possible for women to earn far more than many men.

 

I guess all of those who do OE or are casual contracting should also be paid less because of the lower number of hours they have clocked in.  In fact, people who stay in companies a long time should be paid more than those who leave every 3 to 4 years, which is an inconvenience to the business.  Funny enough, it doesn't seem to work that way.

 

Punishing a woman for taking a couple of years off, in a career often lasting 40+ years, with lower pay for her whole life seems a bit mean.

 

My own experience is that women, overall, are paid less because they don't push hard enough for the top jobs and don't ask for pay rises.  I see this all the time.  When looking at job adverts, men tend to apply when they meet about half of the criteria.  Many women won't apply unless they meet all of them, so in the end they take fewer risks and don't get the rewards.  Once coached and mentored to aim higher and ask for raises, they can achieve better jobs and pay.

 

There is also a pay gap that gay men face too:

 

http://www.gaynz.com/blogs/redqueen/?p=8867

 

And I'd hazard to guess, based on my own experience, that many of us (myself included) we don't push for pay rises because we believe if we do the right thing, work hard, contribute and do some over time without complaining that eventually being a 'good little soldier' will pay off and we'll be rewarded accordingly. The trouble is that it never happens, we aren't promoted, the extra work done to earn brownie points is over looked/ignored so in the end you basically end up where I was which was a stagnant wage for 3 years before eventually I quit because I had enough of it all. What there needs to be is a change in corporate culture - where dick waving, chest beating and 'hard nose negotiating' is thrown out in favour of a system of merit that doesn't involve of 'who can negotiate the best' being the deciding factor instead of the persons qualifications and what they've contributed. To HR, if you can track every single infractions and mistake that an employee makes then you should be equally able to track every positive contribution the person makes as well.

 

 

 

 

Very true.






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  Reply # 1477807 24-Jan-2016 15:19
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Rappelle:

Geektastic:


 


Personally I preferred it when there were less women in the office but I appreciate that is a lost battle!



 


Usually I'm one for freedom of speech and opinion around this subject.. but that's just not something acceptable to say.


In fact, that's almost the epitome of the systemic gender issues in IT. 



Comment from my wife

"I prefer offices with less women too. More gets done and there's a lot less aggro!"





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  Reply # 1477808 24-Jan-2016 15:21
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Geektastic:
Rappelle:

 

Geektastic:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally I preferred it when there were less women in the office but I appreciate that is a lost battle!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Usually I'm one for freedom of speech and opinion around this subject.. but that's just not something acceptable to say.

 

 

 

In fact, that's almost the epitome of the systemic gender issues in IT. 

 



Comment from my wife

"I prefer offices with less women too. More gets done and there's a lot less aggro!"

 

 

 

I actually think you are trolling now.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1477835 24-Jan-2016 17:01
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MikeB4:

Geektastic:
Rappelle:


Geektastic:


 


 


 


Personally I preferred it when there were less women in the office but I appreciate that is a lost battle!


 



 


 


 


Usually I'm one for freedom of speech and opinion around this subject.. but that's just not something acceptable to say.


 


In fact, that's almost the epitome of the systemic gender issues in IT. 




Comment from my wife

"I prefer offices with less women too. More gets done and there's a lot less aggro!"


 


I actually think you are trolling now.



I'd prefer he was, that explains it. But methinks he isn't.

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  Reply # 1477838 24-Jan-2016 17:09
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MikeB4:

 

Geektastic:
Rappelle:

 

Geektastic:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally I preferred it when there were less women in the office but I appreciate that is a lost battle!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Usually I'm one for freedom of speech and opinion around this subject.. but that's just not something acceptable to say.

 

 

 

In fact, that's almost the epitome of the systemic gender issues in IT. 

 



Comment from my wife

"I prefer offices with less women too. More gets done and there's a lot less aggro!"

 

 

 

I actually think you are trolling now.

 

 

 

 

You'd like me to get her to email you to confirm she said that? I'm happy to do so.






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  Reply # 1477870 24-Jan-2016 18:08
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Geektastic:
Comment from my wife

"I prefer offices with less women too. More gets done and there's a lot less aggro!"

 

I hope you told her that's the type of sexist view that leads to gender pay gap discussions in the first place.


UHD

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  Reply # 1477979 25-Jan-2016 00:11
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My favourite part of this article:

 

 

 

"Only one government agency paid women more than men - the Ministry of Women, where women took home an average of 37 per cent more than men."

 

 

 

Why do we even have a "Ministry of Women" and why are men paid so much less there than in the rest of the government? I can't facepalm enough. :)


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  Reply # 1477981 25-Jan-2016 00:19
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tdgeek:
MikeB4:

 

Geektastic:
Rappelle:

 

 

 

Geektastic:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally I preferred it when there were less women in the office but I appreciate that is a lost battle!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Usually I'm one for freedom of speech and opinion around this subject.. but that's just not something acceptable to say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In fact, that's almost the epitome of the systemic gender issues in IT. 

 

 

 



Comment from my wife

"I prefer offices with less women too. More gets done and there's a lot less aggro!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually think you are trolling now.

 



I'd prefer he was, that explains it. But methinks he isn't.

 

 

 

No, he genuinely is stuck in the 1940's.


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  Reply # 1477985 25-Jan-2016 00:26
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backfiah:

 

Geektastic:
Comment from my wife

"I prefer offices with less women too. More gets done and there's a lot less aggro!"

 

I hope you told her that's the type of sexist view that leads to gender pay gap discussions in the first place.

 

 

Of course not. I agree with her.

 

It's got nothing to do with who gets paid what, merely to do with what style of office you prefer to work in.

 

She 'grew up' working on the currency trading desk of Lloyds Bank in London in the 80's so is very sanguine and 'male' in her views of work. She finds women make everything too difficult and are often responsible for much of the dysfunction that she observes in her consultancy roles.

 

Those are her observations and I'm fairly sure she wouldn't be interested in changing them just to suit the prevailing wind of the day or to avoid getting drummed out of the sisterhood.






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