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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1479461 26-Jan-2016 23:26
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There has been a large drop in male primary school teachers in New Zealand. I've heard that it has potentially stemmed from cases like Peter Ellis though I'm I've no idea of the data and think that's probably a little simplistic. Nonetheless an ex of mine went through Teachers College and the two men in her year were employed before any if the rest of her class.

Primary school teaching was never seen as a feminine role, society has simply changed. I fly 4-6 times a month for work, and I was moved seats recently as two kids flying unaccompanied were to sit by me. Which I understand is an Air New Zealand no no, so I got shifted.

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  Reply # 1479488 27-Jan-2016 00:07
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Geektastic: Logically, if they get the number of male teachers to zero, you could argue that women teachers are paid 100% more than male ones...!

 

Try again.


gzt

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  Reply # 1479773 27-Jan-2016 12:26
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networkn:

gzt:
networkn:


gzt:
Geektastic:


 


The biggest downside is that we will eventually end up reducing the effectiveness of companies and their management because either officially or by 'Twitter pressure' companies will be expected to have "x" amount of women in various positions and will give them those jobs over better qualified men simply to be able to say that they have the right number of women.


 


 


 


OH has seen this in banks already, citing one example where the new female Director of HR had zero experience working in HR, no HR qualifications whatsoever but because they had managed a few branches and "it will look better" she got the job and was making a fairly poor fist of it as a result of not having much idea about what it should actually entail.


 



I will generously assume all the above is true. In this case, it is almost certain that a better-qualified woman with more experience missed out on the position.


 


 


 


On what base of facts are you making this claim?


 


 



The fact there are many many very experienced and very qualified women working in HR.


Except you have no evidence to support your claim? You weren't present at the interviews and didn't see the candidates.

[

This point could have been made much earlier in this discussion. I certainly intended to.

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  Reply # 1479802 27-Jan-2016 13:04
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Yawn!

 

It's not a pay comparison between equal work, so it's irrelevant. Besides would anyone complain if there was a sector where men got less for the same work? It's only equality if it applies to everyone equally. 





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  Reply # 1479809 27-Jan-2016 13:11
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BTW it is entirely possible, and perfectly legitimate if the hormonal differences between men and women lead to preferences in career. If there are more women in nursing, and more men in construction, that is actually OKAY. Politics or psychology. Okay. We don't need to make the numbers even. Really at all. We simply need to allow for equally skilled people to have access to any career, gender aside. And those are two very different goals.

 

Gender feminists will tell you it needs to be even, because gender differences are all socialized. Most people know that is bull, even if they buy into the agenda. Equity feminists will tell you all we need is equal rights and opportunities.  That's the sane camp IMO, men and women, on average, have differences. And even what is socialized isn't nessasarily something everyone wants to change. 

 

 

 

The numbers can be different between men and women, in different areas/sectors/careers. That's okay, it doesn't mean anything is broken. It's only broken if its harder for an equally skilled, experiences and hard working person of the other gender can get an equal opportunity in that area. That's a whole different thing to measure and check - and not directly connected to the numbers of people actually working in that area. 





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  Reply # 1479812 27-Jan-2016 13:16
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Dreal:

 

BTW it is entirely possible, and perfectly legitimate if the hormonal differences between men and women lead to preferences in career. If there are more women in nursing, and more men in construction, that is actually OKAY. Politics or HR. Okay. We don't need to make the numbers even. Really at all. We simply need to allow for equally skilled people to have access to any career, gender aside. And those are two very different goals.

 

Gender feminists will tell you it needs to be even, because gender differences are all socialized. Most people know that is bull, even if they buy into the agenda. Equity feminists will tell you all we need is equal rights and opportunities.  That's the sane camp IMO, men and women, on average, have differences. And even what is socialized isn't nessasarily something everyone wants to change. 

 

 

 

 

Agreed. Although apparently if you do not subscribe to the prevailing mood these days, you will be deemed 'unacceptable' and sent for cognitive restructuring....






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  Reply # 1479815 27-Jan-2016 13:21
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Well yes, bullying and group think amongst the politically correct, especially gender feminists is at an all time hight right now. But that's exactly why people need to voice their disagreement with ideas they disagree with. That's the only way this wave of non-thinking ideological compliance will be pushed back. 

 

I was raised feminist. I did feminist papers at uni. I no longer consider myself on. The social media driven, third wave gender feminism of today, has little to do with equality, or dialogue. I think it got lost somewhere up its own arse. 





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BTR

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  Reply # 1479843 27-Jan-2016 13:40
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The ministry for women is a joke and is sexist because where is the ministry for men?

 

 

 

Also my partner earns more than me and I have no problem with it and am happy because she's worked hard to get where she is. Plus if she keeps this up I can be a stay at home dad with no kids!!

 

 

 

 


gzt

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  Reply # 1479855 27-Jan-2016 13:50
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dickytim:

Geektastic:
Rappelle:


Geektastic:


 


 


 


Personally I preferred it when there were less women in the office but I appreciate that is a lost battle!


 



 


 


 


Usually I'm one for freedom of speech and opinion around this subject.. but that's just not something acceptable to say.


 


In fact, that's almost the epitome of the systemic gender issues in IT. 




Comment from my wife

"I prefer offices with less women too. More gets done and there's a lot less aggro!"


I too have found this at my old work place, where there were two or more very opinionated females. Every time a new female employee was hires there was a large degree of cattiness in the office by a couple of female staff. It was almost like they were trying to mark their territory.  


I have seen that situation with a bunch of blokes and a new male hire. Happens all the time. What is the name for that? Oh there kind of isn't one.

On the other hand my current workplace there is a 2-5 ratio (IT work) Men to Women.


The women have the management jobs her over the men etc. etc. No idea if a pay gap exists as that information is not spoken about in the office, also every employee has their strengths and weaknesses and needs to be paid based on those.


One last point the place I worked at previously the women were paid more for the same jobs, especially the ones that batted their eyelids the right way at the boss.


The general tone of I take from your post is that not one of these women deserved to be paid more than any man. I find this very hard to believe.


Edit: strike as above, replace with my feeling.

gzt

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  Reply # 1480036 27-Jan-2016 17:14
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Ok I'll be surprised if anyone can understand that. I'll try again...

dickytim:

Geektastic:
Rappelle:


Geektastic:


 


 


 


Personally I preferred it when there were less women in the office but I appreciate that is a lost battle!


 



 


 


 


Usually I'm one for freedom of speech and opinion around this subject.. but that's just not something acceptable to say.


 


In fact, that's almost the epitome of the systemic gender issues in IT. 




Comment from my wife

"I prefer offices with less women too. More gets done and there's a lot less aggro!"


I too have found this at my old work place, where there were two or more very opinionated females. Every time a new female employee was hires there was a large degree of cattiness in the office by a couple of female staff. It was almost like they were trying to mark their territory.  


I have seen that situation with a bunch of blokes and a new male hire. Happens all the time. What is the name for that? Oh there kind of isn't one.

On the other hand my current workplace there is a 2-5 ratio (IT work) Men to Women.


The women have the management jobs her over the men etc. etc. No idea if a pay gap exists as that information is not spoken about in the office, also every employee has their strengths and weaknesses and needs to be paid based on those.


One last point the place I worked at previously the women were paid more for the same jobs, especially the ones that batted their eyelids the right way at the boss.


The general tone I take away from your post is that not even one of these women deserved to be paid more than any man.

I really find this hard to believe.

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  Reply # 1480094 27-Jan-2016 17:44
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You'd be wrong then.

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  Reply # 1480095 27-Jan-2016 17:44
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When I say 'female dominated' I simply refer to the numbers.  It's not a social statement, just a descriptive term.

 

Pick any profession and you will find men and women working in it. There are female fire fighters, and male nurses.

 

Women aren't forced to be nurses.  But many choose to.  Men can be nurses. But few choose to. 

 

Why? Because men and women are biologically different.  Yes social mores have an influence.  But they probably don't impose differences but rather reflect/reinforce the underpinning biology.

 

Also you are confusing sex and gender.  Two different things.  It's not even biologically clear that gender exists separate from sex (however many people want it to), except as a dysfunction.

 

TwoSeven:

 

MikeAqua:

 

snip

 

Often where female dominated professions are low paid, there are collective employment agreements in place.  Examples include primary teaching, nursing and working for spotless.  I don't believe that any collective agreements provide for males to earn more than females.

 

So when a union says "our [largely] female members are under paid" they are to some extent actually critiquing their own  negotiating performance as a union. 

 

The other common factor for poor pay seems to be working in a large profession that is to a substantial extent government funded.  If that happens, your sector is probably underfunded and probably underpaid.  Consequently nurses, primary teachers, elder carers (mostly female) are all paid low.  So are soldiers and fire fighters (mostly male).

 

snip

 

 

 

There are a couple of points made here and in another post that I find interesting.  The phrase "in female dominated professions" is one of them. To me it highlights an issue of over-representation based on gender.  The first point - where a position is traditionally female or male dominated' is the point being made by gender equality. The stigma that  a job or sport can only be. or is normally done by a specific gender (called gender bias) could be considered one of the factors that creates gender inequality. The second point, that the stigma is created because people often reinforce common beliefs, perceptions and stereotypes of how people should act based on their gender - only a bloke can be a fireman, only a woman can be a nurse etc.  These stereotypes often start at an early age and the affect can be that the person might not consider being able to do anything else.

 

As pointed out in another post - a person should be able to participate in a way that is not based on their gender - what professions, hobbies or sports someone does should not depend on them being male or female - this is what is meant by equal rights, opportunities and responsibilities.  One of the things that can occur with gender inequality is that people may lose out on opportunities because of perceptions about gender - for example, someone might not get asked to a meeting, or might miss out on a training course, or not be told about an opportunity to apply for a promotion or offered a particular job - over time, these missed opportunities and responsibilities add up and can lead to glass ceilings in some industries. Often people (both male or female) miss out on opportunities because the culture of inequality puts pressure on them not learn about a profession in the first place - an example could be women working in STEM subjects such as engineering compared to health sciences.

 





Mike

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  Reply # 1480115 27-Jan-2016 18:05
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Dreal:

 

Well yes, bullying and group think amongst the politically correct, especially gender feminists is at an all time hight right now. But that's exactly why people need to voice their disagreement with ideas they disagree with. That's the only way this wave of non-thinking ideological compliance will be pushed back. 

 

I was raised feminist. I did feminist papers at uni. I no longer consider myself on. The social media driven, third wave gender feminism of today, has little to do with equality, or dialogue. I think it got lost somewhere up its own arse. 

 

 

What, that social media organisation known as the United Nations.  The one that developed the Charter on Human Rights that has an equality clause? The charter that most developed countries have signed up to? The one who's definition of gender equality most people have been working towards for the last 60 years or so?

 

What I sometimes see is a lot of talk and potential misinformation by men that have not actually sat down and taken a look at what the issue currently is - and instead are often putting quite a lot of effort into reinforcing perceptions of the past that are no longer really relevant.  Perhaps they need to understand that it is  both men and women that are now working towards the equality goal - and they are doing so globally - why, because its the right thing to do and these days we have the opportunity to do it.  I think that sometimes some men that are worried because the person next to them is female and turns out to be just as good as they are, they may feel challenged, their world is potentially changing, so they have to invent ways to justify their behaviour or pretend their is no real issue.

 

I suspect there are a lot of men similar to myself who may be sick of working in one-sided male dominated environments and who would like to see their chosen field become better as I am sure it would by including people who are different. I can only imagine what the world would be like if for the last 100 odd years we had included the other 50% of the population as much as it could have been - what great inventions, software applications, hardware, technologies, video games etc. would there be if we had seized about the possibilities that diversity and inclusion and equality gives us.

 

 

 

 

 

 





Software Engineer

 


gzt

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  Reply # 1480131 27-Jan-2016 18:19
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networkn:

TwoSeven:


Not sure if I raised this in an earlier post, but it is interesting to read through many of the posts and see the them generically along the lines of 'its the woman


s fault because [insert some reason here]', or  'Its not an issue because [insert some issue/negative stereotype here]'.   It really kind of re-enforces the point that there may be a gender bias issue.


One of the reasons why some people are not good at things - such as negotiating better deals is often because they have been subjected for much of their lives the message that they cant/are not allowed to/or incapable of doing something. Often when we remove that negative enforcement and replace it with positivity and support we see that same demographic start to excel.


 



 


Good grief! When does people taking responsibility for their own situations come into it? I was taught as a kid not to stand up to authority, and yet, if I choose to, I can, if it's the right thing to do. It's not comfortable, and I am still shy about doing so, but I have chosen to overcome this in my own best interests where it's appropriate. (A situation where I felt I had been wrongly pinged for a traffic matter, meant having a firm and honest talk to the officer who pulled me over. Resulted in him not giving me a ticket.


If I choose to let not being good at something stop me from progressing in my life, why should I make it everyone else's issues? Instead, I choose to overcome or make myself better at those weak areas if I want the benefit.


 


These two points of view are not really mutually exclusive. The view expressed above by networkn is similar to the feminst empowerment movement of the early 80's. ; ).

gzt

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  Reply # 1480139 27-Jan-2016 18:34
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gzt: Ok I'll be surprised if anyone can understand that. I'll try again...

dickytim:

Geektastic:
Rappelle:


Geektastic:


 


 


 


Personally I preferred it when there were less women in the office but I appreciate that is a lost battle!


 



 


 


 


Usually I'm one for freedom of speech and opinion around this subject.. but that's just not something acceptable to say.


 


In fact, that's almost the epitome of the systemic gender issues in IT. 




Comment from my wife

"I prefer offices with less women too. More gets done and there's a lot less aggro!"


I too have found this at my old work place, where there were two or more very opinionated females. Every time a new female employee was hires there was a large degree of cattiness in the office by a couple of female staff. It was almost like they were trying to mark their territory.  


I have seen that situation with a bunch of blokes and a new male hire. Happens all the time. What is the name for that? Oh there kind of isn't one.

On the other hand my current workplace there is a 2-5 ratio (IT work) Men to Women.


The women have the management jobs her over the men etc. etc. No idea if a pay gap exists as that information is not spoken about in the office, also every employee has their strengths and weaknesses and needs to be paid based on those.


One last point the place I worked at previously the women were paid more for the same jobs, especially the ones that batted their eyelids the right way at the boss.


The general tone I take away from your post is that not even one of these women deserved to be paid more than any man.

I really find this hard to believe.

dickytim: You'd be wrong then.

You are really confirming my summary of your view is correct? That not one of these women justly attained their higher pay than a male colleague?

Imo it would be incredibly hard to know this for sure unless you read the c.v's, attended the interviews, attended any salary/wage reviews or negotiations, and also were aware of any future plans or capabilities required to expand the business in future.

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