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gzt

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  Reply # 1480139 27-Jan-2016 18:34
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gzt: Ok I'll be surprised if anyone can understand that. I'll try again...

dickytim:

Geektastic:
Rappelle:


Geektastic:


 


 


 


Personally I preferred it when there were less women in the office but I appreciate that is a lost battle!


 



 


 


 


Usually I'm one for freedom of speech and opinion around this subject.. but that's just not something acceptable to say.


 


In fact, that's almost the epitome of the systemic gender issues in IT. 




Comment from my wife

"I prefer offices with less women too. More gets done and there's a lot less aggro!"


I too have found this at my old work place, where there were two or more very opinionated females. Every time a new female employee was hires there was a large degree of cattiness in the office by a couple of female staff. It was almost like they were trying to mark their territory.  


I have seen that situation with a bunch of blokes and a new male hire. Happens all the time. What is the name for that? Oh there kind of isn't one.

On the other hand my current workplace there is a 2-5 ratio (IT work) Men to Women.


The women have the management jobs her over the men etc. etc. No idea if a pay gap exists as that information is not spoken about in the office, also every employee has their strengths and weaknesses and needs to be paid based on those.


One last point the place I worked at previously the women were paid more for the same jobs, especially the ones that batted their eyelids the right way at the boss.


The general tone I take away from your post is that not even one of these women deserved to be paid more than any man.

I really find this hard to believe.

dickytim: You'd be wrong then.

You are really confirming my summary of your view is correct? That not one of these women justly attained their higher pay than a male colleague?

Imo it would be incredibly hard to know this for sure unless you read the c.v's, attended the interviews, attended any salary/wage reviews or negotiations, and also were aware of any future plans or capabilities required to expand the business in future.

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  Reply # 1480502 28-Jan-2016 10:13
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I agree with you regarding workplaces.  Mixed work places are much more enjoyable places to work.

 

It's interesting to consider your suggestion that if women had been working for the last 100 years technology etc might have developed faster ...

 

Having more people working would increase demand for some services and products, but would it increase enough to support wages for a doubling of the workforce?

 

Does doubling a workforce double the rate of progress?  E.g. if twice as many people worked on the space program would we have people living on Mars by now? Or is there a leveling off where the increase in progress slows as the workforce increases?

 

With modern appliances and materials, a week's housework can be done in about 4 person hours.  But before the middle of last century running a household was hard, slow work. Would it have been sustainable for both adults in a typical household to work? 

 

TwoSeven:

 

snip

 

I suspect there are a lot of men similar to myself who may be sick of working in one-sided male dominated environments and who would like to see their chosen field become better as I am sure it would by including people who are different. I can only imagine what the world would be like if for the last 100 odd years we had included the other 50% of the population as much as it could have been - what great inventions, software applications, hardware, technologies, video games etc. would there be if we had seized about the possibilities that diversity and inclusion and equality gives us.

 





Mike

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1480556 28-Jan-2016 11:19
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That's actually a pretty accurate description of the UN. It's toothless. International law/conventions/treaties are symbolic and unenforceable when it matters.

 

I think that in NZ equality at law is in the category of 'Job Done'.

 

NZ has legislation that outlaws discrimination (including in the workplace and education) on sex, race, religion, family status, political views, sexual orientation. 

 

It's now up to people to utilise/enforce those opportunities.  But enforcement has to be based on credible cases.

 

Comparisons between professions are effective click bait for social media, but of dubious validity.

 

TwoSeven:

 

What, that social media organisation known as the United Nations.  The one that developed the Charter on Human Rights that has an equality clause? The charter that most developed countries have signed up to? The one who's definition of gender equality most people have been working towards for the last 60 years or so?

 

What I sometimes see is a lot of talk and potential misinformation by men that have not actually sat down and taken a look at what the issue currently is - and instead are often putting quite a lot of effort into reinforcing perceptions of the past that are no longer really relevant.  Perhaps they need to understand that it is  both men and women that are now working towards the equality goal - and they are doing so globally - why, because its the right thing to do and these days we have the opportunity to do it.  I think that sometimes some men that are worried because the person next to them is female and turns out to be just as good as they are, they may feel challenged, their world is potentially changing, so they have to invent ways to justify their behaviour or pretend their is no real issue.

 





Mike

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  Reply # 1480874 28-Jan-2016 19:58
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MikeAqua: It's interesting to consider your suggestion that if women had been working for the last 100 years technology etc might have developed faster ...

 

I didn't take the suggestion to mean it would have developed faster, just differently. That's the key benefit of diversity I think, people think in different ways.


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  Reply # 1480951 28-Jan-2016 22:44
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Talk with anyone who works in payroll and you will know the gender pay gap is real.





UHD

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  Reply # 1480973 28-Jan-2016 23:55
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BarTender: Talk with anyone who works in payroll and you will know the gender pay gap is real.

 

I work with several large HR teams and have discussed this very issue at great length. Their conclusions: no pay gap for the same or very similar roles and experience.


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  Reply # 1480976 29-Jan-2016 00:02
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UHD:

 

BarTender: Talk with anyone who works in payroll and you will know the gender pay gap is real.

 

I work with several large HR teams and have discussed this very issue at great length. Their conclusions: no pay gap for the same or very similar roles and experience.

 

 

 

 

If there was, the Board should be firing the HR Director or GM HR or whatever it is called this week.






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  Reply # 1481131 29-Jan-2016 11:42
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Technology converges in the longer term. Unconnected cultures with similar objectives, have generally developed similar solutions - eventually.  Even the boomerang wasn't unique!

 

Technological solutions to (feasible) goals are already implied, we just have to reveal them.

 

I don't think it matters who. Time, numbers and trial will eventually bring it out.

 

I see this as an equality argument: Recruit/promote/pay on merit and team dynamic disregarding demographic factors. 

 

If everyone does that diversity will be present within large workplaces and across small ones, simply because it exists in the population.

 

I'm talking about NZ here. Many countries do have deeply rooted systemic problems that prevent diversity from manifesting in education and employment.

 

bazzer:

 

MikeAqua: It's interesting to consider your suggestion that if women had been working for the last 100 years technology etc might have developed faster ...

 

I didn't take the suggestion to mean it would have developed faster, just differently. That's the key benefit of diversity I think, people think in different ways.

 





Mike

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  Reply # 1481384 29-Jan-2016 17:45
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UHD:

 

BarTender: Talk with anyone who works in payroll and you will know the gender pay gap is real.

 

I work with several large HR teams and have discussed this very issue at great length. Their conclusions: no pay gap for the same or very similar roles and experience.

 

 

Interesting, speaking with someone who works at the coal face who noticed that with similar skills the starting salaries tended to be lower for women. Often because the men who went for similar roles asked for more and got it. So perhaps it's the fault of women for not demanding more pay?

 

I think if there was more transparency on what people earn then there would be less to argue about. However strangely enough people get very worked about what they earn.

 

I thought the Midwives vs Prison officers argument last year was a pretty fair argument about disparate jobs in male vs female dominated areas.






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  Reply # 1481482 29-Jan-2016 20:22
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Here's an inflammatory question - do women make bad imitators of men? Do they caricature us in the attempt to be like us?

 

I am not saying this is female nature. But generally what I find to be 'like us' is somehow wildly off.

 

thoughts? 





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  Reply # 1481483 29-Jan-2016 20:25
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Dreal:

Here's an inflammatory question - do women make bad imitators of men? Do they caricature us in the attempt to be like us?


I am not saying this is female nature. But generally what I find to be 'like us' is somehow wildly off.


thoughts? 



Really????




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1481488 29-Jan-2016 20:47
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MikeB4:
Dreal:

 

Here's an inflammatory question - do women make bad imitators of men? Do they caricature us in the attempt to be like us?

 

 

 

I am not saying this is female nature. But generally what I find to be 'like us' is somehow wildly off.

 

 

 

thoughts? 

 



Really????

 

 

 

Yes really. For example I find lesbian and feminist imitations of men to be wildly negative. Focused on the aggressive dominator predator rather than protector role, for example. 

 

I wish that feminism was about more than bad imitation of male power. That it was about the emphasis of female powers, or gender neutral powers rather than a poor imitation of men. Women in the workplace as many have mentioned already can be like children who haven't quiet grown up. Perhaps the female perception of what it means to be male, has clouded the reality.





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  Reply # 1481520 29-Jan-2016 21:32
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Dreal:

 

MikeB4:
Dreal:

 

Here's an inflammatory question - do women make bad imitators of men? Do they caricature us in the attempt to be like us?

 

 

 

I am not saying this is female nature. But generally what I find to be 'like us' is somehow wildly off.

 

 

 

thoughts? 

 



Really????

 

 

 

Yes really. For example I find lesbian and feminist imitations of men to be wildly negative. Focused on the aggressive dominator predator rather than protector role, for example. 

 

I wish that feminism was about more than bad imitation of male power. That it was about the emphasis of female powers, or gender neutral powers rather than a poor imitation of men. Women in the workplace as many have mentioned already can be like children who haven't quiet grown up. Perhaps the female perception of what it means to be male, has clouded the reality.

 

 

I really don't understand your perception that women need to act like men in some way or have to be compared to them - that really to me is a fundamental sexist view is it not?

 

Being a feminist and being male, I find your concepts that men need to be either dominators or protectors or [insert some other stereotypical masculine trait] quite odd because it is effectively re-enforcing a sexist point of view.

 

The interesting thing is the vilification of lesbian and feminists as if to suggest it is all their fault, but then probably it might be a good idea to start to listen to some of the male humour that is aimed by men at women and try to understand it from the point of view of being on the receiving end. 

 

 





Software Engineer

 


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  Reply # 1481521 29-Jan-2016 21:38
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Dreal:

MikeB4:
Dreal:


Here's an inflammatory question - do women make bad imitators of men? Do they caricature us in the attempt to be like us?


 


I am not saying this is female nature. But generally what I find to be 'like us' is somehow wildly off.


 


thoughts? 




Really????


 


Yes really. For example I find lesbian and feminist imitations of men to be wildly negative. Focused on the aggressive dominator predator rather than protector role, for example. 


I wish that feminism was about more than bad imitation of male power. That it was about the emphasis of female powers, or gender neutral powers rather than a poor imitation of men. Women in the workplace as many have mentioned already can be like children who haven't quiet grown up. Perhaps the female perception of what it means to be male, has clouded the reality.



Wow, this is nonsense on a grand scale.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 




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  Reply # 1481561 29-Jan-2016 23:08
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BarTender:

 

UHD:

 

BarTender: Talk with anyone who works in payroll and you will know the gender pay gap is real.

 

I work with several large HR teams and have discussed this very issue at great length. Their conclusions: no pay gap for the same or very similar roles and experience.

 

 

Interesting, speaking with someone who works at the coal face who noticed that with similar skills the starting salaries tended to be lower for women. Often because the men who went for similar roles asked for more and got it. So perhaps it's the fault of women for not demanding more pay?

 

I think if there was more transparency on what people earn then there would be less to argue about. However strangely enough people get very worked about what they earn.

 

I thought the Midwives vs Prison officers argument last year was a pretty fair argument about disparate jobs in male vs female dominated areas.

 

 

Just maybe the women need to ask for more as well then. Instead of just accepting what they offered, and then saying there's a male enforced gender pay gap, and expecting that (perceived gap) needs to be corrected simply because they're *female*.

 

As to the 'argument' that a 'female dominated' profession should have equality of pay to a 'male dominated' profession irrespective of how different the actual professions are is the perfect example of how irrelevant feminism has become today for women.

 

Why do women need to justify the pay they should receive in their profession based on what men get? Why not just ask for what they believe they should be paid because of what *they* do. You know like men do and have always had to do. After all the pay you get shouldn't be based on what sex you are should it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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