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JWR

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  # 1487202 7-Feb-2016 22:22

Dingbatt:
turnin:
Dingbatt: 15 abreast and about 160 rows, so you're right, about 2400.


15 x160 rows ? Count again.
I'd say closer to 500 rows
You want to use Image J to work it out , there is a people counter plug in for it.


Sorry you have misinterpreted my quick assessment for an interest in the actual crowd size. So you are wrong, I don't want to use Image J, even with its people counter plugin :-)

 

 

 

Counting massed people is notoriously difficult.

 

Does the photo encompass all of them ?

 

- Impossible to tell!

 

Are you even prepared to sit down and count every person in that photo?

 

- sampling would be too open to bias.

 

 

 

I would say, from that photo, don't even try.


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  # 1487219 7-Feb-2016 22:35
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Rikkitic:

 

MikeB4: 

 

Two of the leading professional protesters are Ms Sue Bradford and Mr Minto

 

That's two if them, then. What's the story on the other 20,000?

 

 

 

 

At a rough guess? About 19500 who probably had never read much apart from 3 lines in the paper, had some friends that told them it was "bad" or that "all our houses will be sold to furriners (sic)" or some such.

 

Why on earth wait until the day such a thing is to be signed before making your views known? How many elections have we had since the idea was first mooted? Where were all these thousands on all the days between the then and now? Where were their massive marches and occupations?

 

Sure, there are a few frothing mad lefties like Minto and Bradford and their fellow travellers, but I'd bet in depth interviews with everyone else would reveal that the vast majority just went along without any real knowledge just to get the tee shirt. One person was even quoted as saying "I don't know - I'm just here for my people." when asked why he was there.

 

No one is going to convince me that more than a tiny handful of the people making all that noise actually understood much about the TPP, what the benefits might be for NZ, what the consequences of signing might be - or indeed what the consequences of not signing might be.

 

Let's face it, well over 4 million of us did not think it so important that we'd go and make a noise about it in the street.






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  # 1487223 7-Feb-2016 22:49
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Fortunately, protests in this country tend to be poorly attended shambolic jokes.


JWR

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  # 1487235 7-Feb-2016 23:20
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Geektastic:

 

Rikkitic:

 

MikeB4: 

 

Two of the leading professional protesters are Ms Sue Bradford and Mr Minto

 

That's two if them, then. What's the story on the other 20,000?

 

 

 

 

...

 

Why on earth wait until the day such a thing is to be signed before making your views known? How many elections have we had since the idea was first mooted? Where were all these thousands on all the days between the then and now? Where were their massive marches and occupations?

 

Sure, there are a few frothing mad lefties like Minto and Bradford and their fellow travellers, but I'd bet in depth interviews with everyone else would reveal that the vast majority just went along without any real knowledge just to get the tee shirt. One person was even quoted as saying "I don't know - I'm just here for my people." when asked why he was there.

 

No one is going to convince me that more than a tiny handful of the people making all that noise actually understood much about the TPP, what the benefits might be for NZ, what the consequences of signing might be - or indeed what the consequences of not signing might be.

 

Let's face it, well over 4 million of us did not think it so important that we'd go and make a noise about it in the street.

 

 

The TPPA negotiations have been secret. The discussion with the New Zealand public (from the Government) - nonexistent.

 

If you are going to protest, then wait till the time of maximum (or any) impact.

 

 

 

I don't care who is frothing. But, I actually like to see mass protest. I think it is a good thing. It was supposed to be one of those things that politicians supported in the Cold War.

 

The lack of people voting in recent elections has worried me. It is good to see some commitment in the political process.

 

 

 

I think the overall public opinion on the TPPA is mixed - according to polls. For and against seem about even, with a large uncommitted opinion.

 

 

 

Personally. I think it was a massive tactical/strategic mistake not to complete FTA's with the Asian and Central-South American countries first.

 

The USA drove the negotiations (as the overwhelming power) and therefore achieved a situation that was was more advantageous to them.

 

 

 

I can see benefits to some industries in New Zealand.

 

However, New Zealand consumers seem only to get higher costs.

 

I also think we have threats to our Sovereignty. I don't know if they will be realized.

 

Time will tell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  # 1487258 8-Feb-2016 05:43
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JWR:

Geektastic:


Rikkitic:


MikeB4: 


Two of the leading professional protesters are Ms Sue Bradford and Mr Minto


That's two if them, then. What's the story on the other 20,000?


 



...


Why on earth wait until the day such a thing is to be signed before making your views known? How many elections have we had since the idea was first mooted? Where were all these thousands on all the days between the then and now? Where were their massive marches and occupations?


Sure, there are a few frothing mad lefties like Minto and Bradford and their fellow travellers, but I'd bet in depth interviews with everyone else would reveal that the vast majority just went along without any real knowledge just to get the tee shirt. One person was even quoted as saying "I don't know - I'm just here for my people." when asked why he was there.


No one is going to convince me that more than a tiny handful of the people making all that noise actually understood much about the TPP, what the benefits might be for NZ, what the consequences of signing might be - or indeed what the consequences of not signing might be.


Let's face it, well over 4 million of us did not think it so important that we'd go and make a noise about it in the street.



The TPPA negotiations have been secret. The discussion with the New Zealand public (from the Government) - nonexistent.


If you are going to protest, then wait till the time of maximum (or any) impact.


 


I don't care who is frothing. But, I actually like to see mass protest. I think it is a good thing. It was supposed to be one of those things that politicians supported in the Cold War.


The lack of people voting in recent elections has worried me. It is good to see some commitment in the political process.


 


I think the overall public opinion on the TPPA is mixed - according to polls. For and against seem about even, with a large uncommitted opinion.


 


Personally. I think it was a massive tactical/strategic mistake not to complete FTA's with the Asian and Central-South American countries first.


The USA drove the negotiations (as the overwhelming power) and therefore achieved a situation that was was more advantageous to them.


 


I can see benefits to some industries in New Zealand.


However, New Zealand consumers seem only to get higher costs.


I also think we have threats to our Sovereignty. I don't know if they will be realized.


Time will tell.


 


 


 


 


 



With the North Americans refusing to drop subsidies on their own dairy products, it smacks of do as we say and not do as we do. Free market believers when it suits.

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  # 1487260 8-Feb-2016 07:17
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networkn:

 

MikeB4:

 

 

 

Are you asking how treaty affects New Zealanders or Waitangi Day?

 

Why would we stop our national day?

 

The small group that would win if we changed is the small group that disrupts the celebration. The group this thread is about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am asking how the treaty affects us TODAY? Day to day how does it affect you?

 

I know how Waitangi Day affects us now, 95% people consider it a day off work, 1 percent consider it a way to make a fuss, get their names in the paper to be relevant and important, and 4% fall within the margin of error.

 

You still haven't explained how renaming it to NZ day, is a win for the muppets who disrupt our national day? If we do away with it, they lose, because they become irrelevant and therefore next year there is no such nonsense going on. 

 

 

 

 

Having watched this play out over the past 30-odd years, what surprises me (in a sad way) is how deliberately and willfully ignorant most Kiwis are about the issues around Waitangi and the Treaty. Maori have every right to be angry. At least they stand up for themselves. Anyone who has looked at this in detail can see clearly how decade after decade the white governments of NZ have screwed maori over....and over and over....

That is the reality. But I accept that 95% of Kiwis just do not want to know. That doesn't make it right.  





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  # 1487288 8-Feb-2016 09:39
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Geektastic:

 

Rikkitic:

 

MikeB4: 

 

Two of the leading professional protesters are Ms Sue Bradford and Mr Minto

 

That's two if them, then. What's the story on the other 20,000?

 

 

 

 

At a rough guess? About 19500 who probably had never read much apart from 3 lines in the paper, had some friends that told them it was "bad" or that "all our houses will be sold to furriners (sic)" or some such.

 

Why on earth wait until the day such a thing is to be signed before making your views known? How many elections have we had since the idea was first mooted? Where were all these thousands on all the days between the then and now? Where were their massive marches and occupations?

 

Sure, there are a few frothing mad lefties like Minto and Bradford and their fellow travellers, but I'd bet in depth interviews with everyone else would reveal that the vast majority just went along without any real knowledge just to get the tee shirt. One person was even quoted as saying "I don't know - I'm just here for my people." when asked why he was there.

 

No one is going to convince me that more than a tiny handful of the people making all that noise actually understood much about the TPP, what the benefits might be for NZ, what the consequences of signing might be - or indeed what the consequences of not signing might be.

 

Let's face it, well over 4 million of us did not think it so important that we'd go and make a noise about it in the street.

 

 

I have followed this from the beginning, and until very recently, the only information to be had was vague suspicions about a process that was being kept hidden. A healthy democracy depends on an informed electorate, and in this case information was very much lacking. When it finally became known, people got upset. I don't see any disconnect here at all. Apart from that, you either accept democratic principles or you don't. In a democracy, even the uninformed have a right to an opinion, and to exercise their vote regardless of how they come to a decision. Just because you think they were only there for the tee shirt does not obviate their right to be there, or to express their feelings about the issue.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1487311 8-Feb-2016 11:18
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Linuxluver:

networkn:


MikeB4:


 


Are you asking how treaty affects New Zealanders or Waitangi Day?


Why would we stop our national day?


The small group that would win if we changed is the small group that disrupts the celebration. The group this thread is about.


 



 


I am asking how the treaty affects us TODAY? Day to day how does it affect you?


I know how Waitangi Day affects us now, 95% people consider it a day off work, 1 percent consider it a way to make a fuss, get their names in the paper to be relevant and important, and 4% fall within the margin of error.


You still haven't explained how renaming it to NZ day, is a win for the muppets who disrupt our national day? If we do away with it, they lose, because they become irrelevant and therefore next year there is no such nonsense going on. 


 



Having watched this play out over the past 30-odd years, what surprises me (in a sad way) is how deliberately and willfully ignorant most Kiwis are about the issues around Waitangi and the Treaty. Maori have every right to be angry. At least they stand up for themselves. Anyone who has looked at this in detail can see clearly how decade after decade the white governments of NZ have screwed maori over....and over and over....

That is the reality. But I accept that 95% of Kiwis just do not want to know. That doesn't make it right.  



Most Kiwis view the Treaty as a quaint meaningless historical document, they are prepared to live here but as soon as someone uses the Treaty like say the CGA they want it done away with. Would the USA disregard their Declaration of Independence or their constitution? I do not think so yet a large percentage of New Zealanders are prepared to sacrifice our founding document and one of the main constitutional documents.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 1487316 8-Feb-2016 11:31
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Most Kiwis view the Treaty as a quaint meaningless historical document, they are prepared to live here but as soon as someone uses the Treaty like say the CGA they want it done away with. Would the USA disregard their Declaration of Independence or their constitution? I do not think so yet a large percentage of New Zealanders are prepared to sacrifice our founding document and one of the main constitutional documents.

 

 

 

Well I never said we needed to do away with the document in any shape manner or form. I said Waitangi Day causes no end of friction and continues to be a point of negativity and conflict. 

 

It seems it would be a fairer representation of the entire interests of NZ, if it was called NZ day, therefore taking away some of that conflict. 

 

All claims need to be settled once and for all, and the country needs to move on. 


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  # 1487318 8-Feb-2016 11:39
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networkn:



Most Kiwis view the Treaty as a quaint meaningless historical document, they are prepared to live here but as soon as someone uses the Treaty like say the CGA they want it done away with. Would the USA disregard their Declaration of Independence or their constitution? I do not think so yet a large percentage of New Zealanders are prepared to sacrifice our founding document and one of the main constitutional documents.


 


Well I never said we needed to do away with the document in any shape manner or form. I said Waitangi Day causes no end of friction and continues to be a point of negativity and conflict. 


It seems it would be a fairer representation of the entire interests of NZ, if it was called NZ day, therefore taking away some of that conflict. 


All claims need to be settled once and for all, and the country needs to move on. 



I don't recall saying you did and if I did I apologise. I agree all claims need to be settled sooner than later and stop the pain. I also believe there needs to be full discussion and consultation regarding changing how we celebrate the day.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 1487374 8-Feb-2016 12:23
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I don't recall saying you did and if I did I apologise. I agree all claims need to be settled sooner than later and stop the pain. I also believe there needs to be full discussion and consultation regarding changing how we celebrate the day.

 

Fair enough. 

 

Unfortunately I think that the changing of the name of the day, and ultimately it's meaning would also cause considerable conflict. I can forsee it being "something else" we have "taken" from the Maori. To some degree I'd actually be inclined to agree with that viewpoint, however

 

I don't see the current negativity ever being resolved. There will be loud elements who will never "forgive" the sins of the past and therefore to get people on the same page as Kiwi's we need a day that doesn't just talk about Waitangi, but about New Zealand as a whole. There are approximately the same

 

number of Maori, as Asians in NZ.

 

 


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  # 1487379 8-Feb-2016 12:29
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I believe there should be a celebration at Waitangi but de-politicise it and have only the Govenor General there representing the Crown. The other main celebration should be in Wellington. The name should stay the same, that is important.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


gzt

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  # 1487521 8-Feb-2016 14:53
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MikeB4:
networkn:



Most Kiwis view the Treaty as a quaint meaningless historical document, they are prepared to live here but as soon as someone uses the Treaty like say the CGA they want it done away with. Would the USA disregard their Declaration of Independence or their constitution? I do not think so yet a large percentage of New Zealanders are prepared to sacrifice our founding document and one of the main constitutional documents.


 


Well I never said we needed to do away with the document in any shape manner or form. I said Waitangi Day causes no end of friction and continues to be a point of negativity and conflict. 


It seems it would be a fairer representation of the entire interests of NZ, if it was called NZ day, therefore taking away some of that conflict. 


All claims need to be settled once and for all, and the country needs to move on. 



I don't recall saying you did and if I did I apologise. I agree all claims need to be settled sooner than later and stop the pain. I also believe there needs to be full discussion and consultation regarding changing how we celebrate the day.

The Treaty is not a bill of sale. It is part of the constitution of New Zealand.

The idea that it will end and never again be referred to is silly. It is like saying, when will all claims against the US constitution end?

Among other things it rightly protects New Zealand's cultural and historical heritage and that is likely to be an ongoing conversation into the future.

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  # 1487543 8-Feb-2016 15:36
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MikeB4: I believe there should be a celebration at Waitangi but de-politicise it and have only the Govenor General there representing the Crown. The other main celebration should be in Wellington. The name should stay the same, that is important.

 

Ok, I could live with that. Esp the de-politicise it.


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  # 1487547 8-Feb-2016 15:41
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gzt:
MikeB4:
networkn:

 



I don't recall saying you did and if I did I apologise. I agree all claims need to be settled sooner than later and stop the pain. I also believe there needs to be full discussion and consultation regarding changing how we celebrate the day.

The Treaty is not a bill of sale. It is part of the constitution of New Zealand.

The idea that it will end and never again be referred to is silly. It is like saying, when will all claims against the US constitution end?

Among other things it rightly protects New Zealand's cultural and historical heritage and that is likely to be an ongoing conversation into the future.

 

 

 

I'm sorry what!?

 

For ever you expect Iwi to stake claim to land and continue to be paid out? This goes against the entire document that was signed. Treaty settlements need to be finalized, soon, and that should be the end of claims. 

 

Whilst claims remain outstanding there is some validity to the 'them' and 'us' beliefs that exist, and those need to be ended. You are either a Kiwi, working together for the betterment of NZ, or GTFO.


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