Do you want the flag to stay as it is?

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Reply # 1519579 25-Mar-2016 12:04

Hammerer:
This thread has gone downhill since the results. I read the lastest posts looking for some reasonable analysis and found too many less than constructive comments: too much petulance, scapegoating and fuzzy thinking.

I will be interested to see a comprehensive analysis of voting. Post-vote surveys could be indicative of why people voted the way they did. The problem is that if this is highly politicised, as many believe, then many people will respond with whatever serves their political objective rather than telling us why they actually voted the way they did.

I'll expand on that a bit. Changing the flag is a political process.

Let's take an election for example. All the votes are counted and the members are returned to parliament. If there is no clear majority or there is possibility for instability there must be some discussions. Can happen in FPP or MMP. Different parties need to first state positions and then find a way forward.

So, some discussions are actually required. The process we had did open the discussion but that is all it achieved. It did not move forward to a resolution of differences.

roobarb

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Reply # 1519581 25-Mar-2016 12:17

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Perhaps the exercise was recognized as window dressing. Changing to a Republic or joining Australia would certainly merit a flag change.

"The States" shall mean such of the colonies of New South Wales, New Zealand, Queensland, Tasmania, Victoria, Western Australia, and South Australia, including the northern territory of South Australia, as for the time being are parts of the Commonwealth, and such colonies or territories as may be admitted into or established by the Commonwealth as States; and each of such parts of the Commonwealth shall be called "a State".

Maybe we should have a referendum proposing we join our neighbours....

Batman

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Reply # 1519586 25-Mar-2016 12:33

Hammerer:

This thread has gone downhill since the results. I read the lastest posts looking for some reasonable analysis and found too many less than constructive comments: too much petulance, scapegoating and fuzzy thinking.

I will be interested to see a comprehensive analysis of voting. Post-vote surveys could be indicative of why people voted the way they did. The problem is that if this is highly politicised, as many believe, then many people will respond with whatever serves their political objective rather than telling us why they actually voted the way they did.

I maintain, most want to change, most don't like the replacement. Unlike some, who will change for the sake of change, more want the change to be actually well designed.

SJB

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Reply # 1519605 25-Mar-2016 13:07

When the Queen dies we should become a republic. When we become a republic we get a new flag.

End of story. Pretty well everybody would vote for change then.

jeffnz

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Reply # 1519626 25-Mar-2016 13:39

SJB:

When the Queen dies we should become a republic. When we become a republic we get a new flag.

End of story. Pretty well everybody would vote for change then.

whilst I'm against the Union Jack on the flag i'm not,yet, convinced there is any benefit for us going to a republic but that is for another thread to discuss.

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Reply # 1519633 25-Mar-2016 13:58

JayADee: I'd be ok with a flag change if they had a design I liked.
Canada has the best flag. :)

They're actually a pretty polite bunch over there. We should ask them if we can use their flag. They'd probably consider it too impolite to say no. :-)

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Reply # 1519646 25-Mar-2016 14:42

JayADee: I'd be ok with a flag change if they had a design I liked.
Canada has the best flag. :)

They didn't like it. Govt brought it in. Rest is history

tdgeek

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Reply # 1519649 25-Mar-2016 14:47

dafman:

vexxxboy:

im just annoyed that a lot of people just voted for the old flag as a vote against Key, i find that petty for what was an important referendum.

I didn't vote against Key, I voted against bad design.

The beach towel is no more.

I don't buy the bad design argument. Its a flag, not punctuation. Pablo Pccasso's paintings are badly designed as well. You can't fit everything in life into formula's of acceptability.

Canada's flag is a beach towel, ask them in the 60's when the Govt brought it in. Thats what the Canadian citizens said.

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Reply # 1519650 25-Mar-2016 14:49

joker97:

I would have voted for the a new flag if it had everything but the giant white fern.

No fern now, as thats not a part of NZ culture and identity, the Union Jack is though. Bizarre. Perhaps we should have a white Kiwi in the centre of a black flag. Oz should sue QANTAS flag. Sorted

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Reply # 1519668 25-Mar-2016 14:57

jmh:

tdgeek:

dafman:

vexxxboy:

im just annoyed that a lot of people just voted for the old flag as a vote against Key, i find that petty for what was an important referendum.

I didn't vote against Key, I voted against bad design.

The beach towel is no more.

The Canadian flag has been very much admired here. This is what the Canadians said when their new one was on the table in the 60's

"Canada, another former British colony, agonised over a switch in the mid-1960s with the public submitting thousands of suggested new designs including everything from beavers to the fleur-de-lis. After months of debate, parliament approved the red-and-white flag emblazoned with a maple leaf."

"Some said it looked garish, a design better suited to a beach towel, while others said the whole process was politically motivated."

56.61% voted for no change. Given the human psyche of resisting change, you could argue its a win for the new flag.

Another quote

WVTM13, a local US news station ran the angle of New Zealand's decision to stay true to it's British roots.
"New Zealanders stay with Brit-inspired flag... Silver Fern loses to flag that looks a lot like Australia's flag."

The Canadian flag was imposed on people who didn't want it. While it stands out, that doesn't mean it's a good flag, or the right one. If anything it's a symbol of how democracy was overruled.

Are you serious?? The Canadian Govt chose that flag. How is that forced? How is that over ruling democracy? Their people democratically voted them in, so I guess every law that every democratic Govt passes is actually forced on us? In fact its a great flag, and the citizens didn't like it and saw it as a beach towel, and political. Its new, people hate change. Great reason, that that Govt didn't play that mind game and chose a great flag

I was checking today who sells the new flag, flagshop.co.nz has them, and when I see them on the webpage on the product pages, next to the old flag, it looks even better

Its the old flag with the Union Jack replaced by the fern. Thats not a NZ flag, THIS IS A NZ FLAG (tm C.Dundee )

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Reply # 1519669 25-Mar-2016 15:01

jeffnz:

SJB:

When the Queen dies we should become a republic. When we become a republic we get a new flag.

End of story. Pretty well everybody would vote for change then.

whilst I'm against the Union Jack on the flag i'm not,yet, convinced there is any benefit for us going to a republic but that is for another thread to discuss.

Same. What benefits could we get from being a Republic. UK has no direct effect on us, we are fully independent. The Queen signs off the Royal Assent on new laws, but she always will, that is a mere custom now. Unless there is an economic or social benefit, I can't see the point. There are probably things that we might lose from the UK if we chose to be a republic. I see us as a Republic anyway. We control our destiny 100%. Republic or Independent State, same thing pretty much

gzt

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Reply # 1519670 25-Mar-2016 15:07

If the proposed new flag had been affirmed my feeling is some minor design tweaks would have been applied in practice.

mattwnz

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Reply # 1519689 25-Mar-2016 15:33

gzt: If the proposed new flag had been affirmed my feeling is some minor design tweaks would have been applied in practice.

I don't think the process allowed for that. Also if they were going to do that, who decides of the changes, as it won't be the same flag people voted for. Also if that occurred, wouldn't we have been better just to get design experts to come up with the designs initially, and to chose the best flag for us from a panel of design experts, rather than have amateurs design and choose it . I mean they don't have this sort of process when it comes to designing the New Zealand national museum etc. The problem is that people thing designing something like a national flag is something anyone can do, and it totally devalues good design.

gzt

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Reply # 1519694 25-Mar-2016 15:44

Nah but I think it would have happened after.

MaxLV

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Reply # 1519697 25-Mar-2016 16:07

tdgeek:

Sideface:

jmh:

<snip>

The Canadian flag was imposed on people who didn't want it. While it stands out, that doesn't mean it's a good flag, or the right one. If anything it's a symbol of how democracy was overruled.

In my opinion the Canadian flag is easily the best flag design in the world. Simple and very effective. It says "Canada".

Disclaimer: I am not Canadian.

Very much so. Now, the Union Jack doesn't say NZ, nor do 4 random red stars to the vast majority of the rest of the world.

Going by the article I quoted, if they had a referendum I gather it would have failed, due to beach towel and political influence, yet the Govt of the day made what is now seen as a 100% supported flag, which as you say is all Canada as the rest of the world sees it.

Yeah it (the Union Jack) does say New Zealand. It is part of our national flag after all. We could have become a french colony if it hadn't been for the Union Jack.

The Union Jack won because of all that it stands for to the majority of us New Zealanders that voted to keep it as part of our flag, who recognised it's part in New Zealand's history, and because it represents what New Zealand is today.

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