Do you want the flag to stay as it is?

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BDFL - Memuneh
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#1520319 27-Mar-2016 11:33

As I said before, we all know which sides the most vocal two in this discussion are. So it's time to take a cup of calm down and... calm down.

Instead of discussing your personal opinions, discuss the outcome and how it influences the country or how it doesn't change anything, or why it was a stupid idea from the Prime Minister, or why it was the only good thing he's done the whole time in power.

But stop going at each other.

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tdgeek

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#1520329 27-Mar-2016 12:13

Fair call. Max, we agree to disagree? Lets move on as MF says, cheers

JimmyH

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#1520556 27-Mar-2016 20:54

MaxLV:

FACT: John Key is a mediocre prime minister (I'm being polite here) He and his government have put New Zealand into several hundred billion dollars of debt, that costs us $10,000,000+ a day in interest alone. That's the real legacy of his 'leadership'.

Just out of interest, where are you sourcing these "facts"?

John Key may, or may, not be a mediocre PM. That is most definitely an opinion not a fact, and opinions vary.

But the "several hundred billion" in debt you claim the government has run up while he has been PM doesn't look remotely credible. So I checked. According to the govt's most financial statements (page 107 Available here) consolidated crown borrowings are $112 billion (and that includes SOEs etc), and (page 105) net issuance of bonds in 2015 was $1.5 billion. So I can't see how it can possibly have increased by several hundred billion?

Coming back on topic, I'm vaguely bemused by the passion that seems to have gone into the flag debate - on both sides. On balance, I preferred the old flag, but I didn't really care. Does it really matter that much what design of tea-towel people choose to run up a wooden pole?

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#1520683 28-Mar-2016 10:35

@JimmyH Checkout government debt prior to National taking over from Labour. Labour actually paying the loan (principal) during their time and at the moment we are just paying interest.

I actually did some digging - there isn't much new policy under Key. It seems like the country runs on autopilot with some minor adjustment over time. He did have the policy of raking up as much debt as possible as he was expecting the interest will go low. I think this is how some company like Solid Energy ran into trouble?

I wonder if Judith Collins can takeover from John Key soon.

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#1520738 28-Mar-2016 13:13

nakedmolerat: @JimmyH Checkout government debt prior to National taking over from Labour. Labour actually paying the loan (principal) during their time and at the moment we are just paying interest.

I actually did some digging - there isn't much new policy under Key. It seems like the country runs on autopilot with some minor adjustment over time. He did have the policy of raking up as much debt as possible as he was expecting the interest will go low. I think this is how some company like Solid Energy ran into trouble?

I wonder if Judith Collins can takeover from John Key soon.

Yes, I know. They have run up a bit of debt over the last three terms, although a global recession and a massive earthquake reconstruction bill have a bit to do with that. Plus, I seem to recall a lot of people who aren't exactly national supporters (Rosenberg et al) complaining at the time that they should have run bigger deficits to stimulate the economy when the GFC started to bite.

Anyhow, I'm not here to defend the Nats (and I don't actually have much of an allegiance to any political party). I'm just questioning why it is being asserted that the government has run up "several hundred billion dollars of debt" as an incontrovertible fact - when as far as I can see they started with some debt and taking the widest possible measure of debt (ie, consolidated not core crown) it has only reached $112 bn.

As far as I can see, that "fact" can't remotely be true, and I was asking for his source.

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#1520825 28-Mar-2016 18:06

The dividing the nation thing is overdone. The vast vast majority just don't care /that/ much.

Imho the support for the old flag is mostly very soft. If the proposed flag had been accepted at least half of those would have been 'oh well looks ok, new flag it is then, that will do me'.

So many of the old flag voters were just voting against the current government. Ie; not against the process or the design outcome.

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#1520842 28-Mar-2016 18:49

JimmyH:
nakedmolerat: @JimmyH Checkout government debt prior to National taking over from Labour. Labour actually paying the loan (principal) during their time and at the moment we are just paying interest.

I actually did some digging - there isn't much new policy under Key. It seems like the country runs on autopilot with some minor adjustment over time. He did have the policy of raking up as much debt as possible as he was expecting the interest will go low. I think this is how some company like Solid Energy ran into trouble?

I wonder if Judith Collins can takeover from John Key soon.

Yes, I know. They have run up a bit of debt over the last three terms, although a global recession and a massive earthquake reconstruction bill have a bit to do with that. Plus, I seem to recall a lot of people who aren't exactly national supporters (Rosenberg et al) complaining at the time that they should have run bigger deficits to stimulate the economy when the GFC started to bite.

Anyhow, I'm not here to defend the Nats (and I don't actually have much of an allegiance to any political party). I'm just questioning why it is being asserted that the government has run up "several hundred billion dollars of debt" as an incontrovertible fact - when as far as I can see they started with some debt and taking the widest possible measure of debt (ie, consolidated not core crown) it has only reached $112 bn.

As far as I can see, that "fact" can't remotely be true, and I was asking for his source.

I agree. This comes down to myself and Max. Debating the flag. I don't have that big a deal issue with the flag debate, it's about being told that what I say is an opinion, (which it is) and his dissenting view is a fact.

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#1520844 28-Mar-2016 18:52

gzt: The dividing the nation thing is overdone. The vast vast majority just don't care /that/ much.

Imho the support for the old flag is mostly very soft. If the proposed flag had been accepted at least half of those would have been 'oh well looks ok, new flag it is then, that will do me'.

So many of the old flag voters were just voting against the current government. Ie; not against the process or the design outcome.

I half agree. Most humans don't like change and to change a flag is a biggie. If someone said F John key that annoys me. If someone said, I'm related to WW2 then their decision to retain the old flag is genuine and I appreciate that

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#1520855 28-Mar-2016 18:58

The flag debate and vote has made it easier for many people to accept a change of flag. I really only want a change of flag in line with an event of more consequence like getting a formal constitution, becoming a republic, joining Australia, or our soccer team moving to the Asia federation.

Edited to correct bad grammar.

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#1520867 28-Mar-2016 19:06

Hammerer:
The flag debate and vote has made it easier for many people to accept a change of flag. I really only want a change of flag in line with an event of more consequence like getting a formal constitution, becoming a republic, joining Australia, or our soccer team moving to the Asia federation.

Edited to correct bad grammar.

1. Based on the US a constitution is a negative. Not just Trump, but it's interpretation.
2. Republic, No for above reason.
3. Australia, no. Being bitter enemies at sport and cousins when in trouble is priceless.
4. I don't follow Football, so I agree!

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#1520872 28-Mar-2016 19:19

We already have a constitution in practice so in reality that is not an issue. Kind of colliding with the Republic thread here : ).

eracode

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#1520876 28-Mar-2016 19:24

gzt: The dividing the nation thing is overdone. The vast vast majority just don't care /that/ much.

Imho the support for the old flag is mostly very soft. If the proposed flag had been accepted at least half of those would have been 'oh well looks ok, new flag it is then, that will do me'.

So many of the old flag voters were just voting against the current government. Ie; not against the process or the design outcome.

I voted against the new design - not because I'm a die-hard for old one (I'm not) - but because I thought it was a half-baked populist design. Tea- and beach-towel descriptions weren't far wrong in my view. Nice but not suitable to be our national flag.

If the alternative option was one I could have lived with, I would have been happy to vote for a change. I know it doesn't get much support here but I really did like Red Peak - for a number of reasons.

For me voting 'status quo' was nothing to do with putting John Key in his place nor a protest at the process.

Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.

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#1520888 28-Mar-2016 19:43

Yeah it's kind of unfortunate the support change question did not appear on the second referendum. I guess it will be a slow process of that coming out in time.

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#1521874 28-Mar-2016 21:25

gzt: Yeah it's kind of unfortunate the support change question did not appear on the second referendum. I guess it will be a slow process of that coming out in time.

Agree with both of you. Support for change isn't support for the new flag , although I like the new flag. IMHO it got emotive not flag-otive

dafman

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#1522088 29-Mar-2016 09:52

Focusing on the positive. Now that the beach towel is officially done and dusted, has it cleared the way for the only proper new NZ flag to rise again at some point in our future ... ?

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