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2697 posts

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  Reply # 1493676 17-Feb-2016 09:33
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PhantomNVD: Let's face it, the government in this country (both sides) do whatever they like... Referendums aren't legally binding, there was no option about the flag selection necessity in the first place, and we all know that they are going to change it in spite of a majority of the population against doing so.

A government that doesn't listen to its people...

Democracy? NIMBY 😔

 

Thank god they're not binding... representative democracy doesn't by design provide its people with a guaranteed say on every last thing, including issues put to a referendum. As irritating, blind, self-serving and incompetent as our politicians can be, I'd take these downsides over a form of direct democracy that included binding referenda any day. Sometimes politicians need to lead change, ahead of the will of a "majority" of the population.


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  Reply # 1493686 17-Feb-2016 09:45
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When I first visited NZ, it took me a minute to figure out what was different about it vs the Australian Flag. I really had to think...they look the same but something has to be different about them ----Oh! The stars are red, the Commonwealth Star is missing and one star in the southern cross is missing.

A flag with the Silver Fern in it would make the New Zealand Flag as recognizable as the Canadian Flag is for Canada.

Or perhaps I am wrong and the Canadian Flag is not as recognizable as I would like to think it is?

50+ years ago, the same debate happened in Canada. I think in the long run, change would be for the better.

 


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1493696 17-Feb-2016 10:05
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Azzura: When I first visited NZ, it took me a minute to figure out what was different about it vs the Australian Flag. I really had to think...they look the same but something has to be different about them ----Oh! The stars are red, the Commonwealth Star is missing and one star in the southern cross is missing.

 

Getting a bit off topic, but I used to work for a US company in their Adelaide (South Australia) office and one of the American managers once gave myself and a couple of other Kiwis there a hard time about how our flag is so similar to the Australian one and asked if the harbour bridges in Sydney and Auckland were the same bridge. We got our own back by telling her that in the southern hemisphere the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, like the water going down the drain the other way, and she drove over an hour in the wrong direction on the way home...


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  Reply # 1493748 17-Feb-2016 10:29
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 Doesn't surprise me Andrew.


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  Reply # 1493753 17-Feb-2016 10:40
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(since the OP has his answer, and this has turned into a sharing thread, I'll share :) )

 

Personally, I do tend to agree with those that say the whole thing was a waste of money and perhaps a bit of an ego trip for Mr Key, wanting to leave some sort of legacy, etc.  I would have been perfectly happy to leave the flag as it was and not have the whole referendum, etc.

 

BUT, now that that money has been spent and we are where we are, I think the proposed new flag is decent (perhaps not the best, but decent), so I'll probably vote to change it. It's not like changing the flag will change NZs history or sever our ties to the UK or anything like that...


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  Reply # 1493820 17-Feb-2016 11:23
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I am for changing the flag in theory, but I'll be voting no in the referendum.

 

I think the flag design chosen is, in a word, awful. It doesn’t have any of the qualities of the powerful, iconic flags admired around the world (including the oft-quoted Canadian flag, which is a masterful balance of national symbolism and tasteful simplicity). The Lockwood flag is the old flag awkwardly mashed together with the de facto national symbol, all in the most jarring and unpleasant colour scheme imaginable (default MS paint-blue and black). There's way too much going on. It doesn’t look like a flag at all. It looks like a beach towel sold in a tacky tourist store. If it wins I will be embarrassed whenever I see it flying to represent my country.

 

The flag selection process proved to me that the NZ public doesn’t know the first thing about flag design, which I guess isn’t all that unexpected. More worryingly, the expert panel didn’t seem to have a clue either. Any design that actually met the basic requirements of a flag (like Red Peak) was rejected as “not representing our country”. Someone needed to remind them that the majority of countries with long, proud histories are represented by three coloured stripes of various colours, which they wouldn't dream of changing. Imagine the French or German flags with a tacky national symbol (stylized and set at a jaunty angle) jammed into them!

 

A common attitude seems to be that “I don’t love the Lockwood flag, but I’ll take anything over the current flag”. I honestly don’t get it and I think you people are crazy. The current flag is a bit boring but it’s not doing any harm. Find the right flag first, then change it. I promise I’ll be fully on board.


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  Reply # 1493822 17-Feb-2016 11:24
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I support the flag change.

 

Why? Like Australia we currently, basically, have the Union Jack as our flag and think it's time that we adopted a flag with a New Zealand identity.

 

The way the new flag choice was made was not ideal, IMHO, but you are never going to get a choice that pleases everyone.

 

The proposed new flag incorporates a stylized fern on black which is not inconsistent with the use of the silver fern symbol which seems to be waved for patriotism at big events eg the Olympics.

 

I would have preferred not to have the Southern Cross stars as they are, essentially, also on the Australian flag but it is likely that Australia will also change it's flag, at some stage, and perhaps a common symbol is not inappropriate for close, similar neighbours.

 

 

 

I don't see much merit to arguments against changing the flag. They just seem to be the usual reactionary response to change.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1493827 17-Feb-2016 11:31
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Azzura:
A flag with the Silver Fern in it would make the New Zealand Flag as recognizable as the Canadian Flag is for Canada.
Or perhaps I am wrong and the Canadian Flag is not as recognizable as I would like to think it is?
50+ years ago, the same debate happened in Canada. I think in the long run, change would be for the better.

 

 

It the proposed design was as simple, as striking and as distinctive as the Canadian flag, then it would be a much more difficult choice in next month's referendum.
The Canadian design is IMNSHO a wonderful piece of graphic design.

 

As it is, the choice is between our existing national flag and a fairly nice tea-towel or maybe beach-towel design.
No thanks, I'll stick with the old one, which was my preference anyway.

 

The silver fern design is too closely associated with sporting teams to be an effective national cultural symbol, and I suspect that finding a fern design that didn't conflict with the many copyrighted variations on that theme would be problematic.

 

 

 

By the way, if we do change the national flag, who is going to design and authorise the many official defacements of the NZ National Flag, for example the flags flown by the Fire Service, Navy, Air Force, Police, Customs Service, &c.?
Presumably they are all issued on a Royal Warrant, so changing will be neither quick nor easy


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  Reply # 1493830 17-Feb-2016 11:32
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I was initially against changing the flag, Not because I think we shouldn't change it but rather I wasn't that impressed with the new designs.

 

However after seeing it IRL while driving over the bridge the other day it has grown on me and IMO its a better option than the current flag in terms of design and representing NZ as a modern country.


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  Reply # 1493854 17-Feb-2016 12:12
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  1. Yes, but not voting for proposed.
  2. Union Jack no longer relevant for modern NZ
  3. Yes. Proposed beach towel even worse than current, so voting to stick with current.
  4. Yes. It was a flag, not a towel.
  5. Any design designed by a designer after suitable consultation.
  6. Not sure.
  7. Land of the long white cloud - or Red Peak

 

 


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  Reply # 1493940 17-Feb-2016 12:48
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The new flag is merely an update.

 

Union Jack replaced by a NZ icon, good update

 

British Blue replaced by Black, our evolved national colour, good update

 

Southern Cross remains, so the flag is not a new flag, 2 of the 3 features are updated, style remains the same. The style is occupy the top left, and Southern Cross over a colour. None of this has changed

 

 

 

I dont get the labelling the fern as a sports issue. Silver fern has always been part of NZ, do you expect sports people/teams to ignore it?

 

Canadian sports people/teams wear red and the maple. I see the sports label as just looking for a reason

 

 


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  Reply # 1493971 17-Feb-2016 13:17
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1 Yes, we could keep the old flag phase in a new version.  We still have god save the queen as an official national anthem, as well as God Defend NZ.

 

2 Don't identify with the union jack, almost identical to Aus

 

3 -

 

4 No

 

5 No non of the options inspired me

 

6 -

 

7 I like the patch NZDF wear, a simple Kiwi on a plain background, not black though. A bold and simple iconic logo like the Canadian Maple leaf flag. 


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  Reply # 1494043 17-Feb-2016 14:21
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allio:

 

I am for changing the flag in theory, but I'll be voting no in the referendum.

 

I think the flag design chosen is, in a word, awful. It doesn’t have any of the qualities of the powerful, iconic flags admired around the world (including the oft-quoted Canadian flag, which is a masterful balance of national symbolism and tasteful simplicity). The Lockwood flag is the old flag awkwardly mashed together with the de facto national symbol, all in the most jarring and unpleasant colour scheme imaginable (default MS paint-blue and black). There's way too much going on. It doesn’t look like a flag at all. It looks like a beach towel sold in a tacky tourist store. If it wins I will be embarrassed whenever I see it flying to represent my country.

 

The flag selection process proved to me that the NZ public doesn’t know the first thing about flag design, which I guess isn’t all that unexpected. More worryingly, the expert panel didn’t seem to have a clue either. Any design that actually met the basic requirements of a flag (like Red Peak) was rejected as “not representing our country”. Someone needed to remind them that the majority of countries with long, proud histories are represented by three coloured stripes of various colours, which they wouldn't dream of changing. Imagine the French or German flags with a tacky national symbol (stylized and set at a jaunty angle) jammed into them!

 

A common attitude seems to be that “I don’t love the Lockwood flag, but I’ll take anything over the current flag”. I honestly don’t get it and I think you people are crazy. The current flag is a bit boring but it’s not doing any harm. Find the right flag first, then change it. I promise I’ll be fully on board.

 

 

 

 

Aaron D, is that you?  :p

 

 

 

(Sorry, couldn't resist, this all sounds exactly like all the rhetoric that was so popular when "everyone" was up in arms about red peak not being included...)


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  Reply # 1494067 17-Feb-2016 15:00
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I rather like the proposed new flag, but I'm against changing it largely because JK is already far too smug and I'd rather not give him any more victories than necessary. I'm sure he likes the proposed flag as it has the fern on it that he wanted, and his party's colour strongly represented, to the detriment of the oppositions. Possibly a nose\face scenario, but there you are.





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  Reply # 1494076 17-Feb-2016 15:21
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Needs to change when sporting star's have the Australian flag fly for them, because our current flag has been mistaken for it!

 

http://www.driven.co.nz/news/lifestyle/awkward-paddon-s-aussie-flag-mix-up-in-wrc/

 

 


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