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389 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1494123 17-Feb-2016 16:12
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sidefx:

 

Aaron D, is that you?  :p

 

 (Sorry, couldn't resist, this all sounds exactly like all the rhetoric that was so popular when "everyone" was up in arms about red peak not being included...)

 

 

I guess it might sound like rhetoric if you don't agree, but that's exactly how I feel! I think a lot of the arguments for change are rhetoric too ("it's a once in a lifetime chance!" uh, why exactly?), so maybe it depends on which side of the fence you're sitting.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Red Peak was "the one" either. Points in its favour were that it looked like a flag (simple geometric design), was easily identifiable and reproducible, and didn't resort to bunging in a tacky national symbol. There were probably hundreds of others in the original longlist that had just as much merit. I didn't think much of it at first but as the field narrowed to a lineup of wonky silver ferns it stood more and more apart on those grounds. However it was a bit abstract and clearly didn't capture the imagination of the country at large - so be it.

 

I also know that design is subjective to some degree, but I strongly feel that shoving a fern or a kiwi on to the flag is the wrong approach. A flag is a national symbol in its own right, and we'll grow to be proud of it in time even if it's just a collection of coloured shapes. Making sure it's well-designed and aesthetically pleasing are more important than including our existing "national symbol" and "national colour" which, much as I love em, just aren't that well suited to go on a flag.

 

Basically my desire to change the flag is outweighed by my desire not to have a crap flag. Others either think the benefits of change outweigh the crappiness of the design or, god help them, actually like the Lockwood flag. I acknowledge those viewpoints but heartily disagree.


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  Reply # 1494291 17-Feb-2016 20:20
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allio:

 

... or, god help them, actually like the Lockwood flag. ...

 

 

I like it.  What makes you think I need help from someone else's imaginary friend?





Don't use 'beefstew' as a password.  It's not stroganoff.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1494371 17-Feb-2016 20:58
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jonathan18:

 

PhantomNVD: Let's face it, the government in this country (both sides) do whatever they like... Referendums aren't legally binding, there was no option about the flag selection necessity in the first place, and we all know that they are going to change it in spite of a majority of the population against doing so.

A government that doesn't listen to its people...

Democracy? NIMBY 😔

 

Thank god they're not binding... representative democracy doesn't by design provide its people with a guaranteed say on every last thing, including issues put to a referendum. As irritating, blind, self-serving and incompetent as our politicians can be, I'd take these downsides over a form of direct democracy that included binding referenda any day. Sometimes politicians need to lead change, ahead of the will of a "majority" of the population.

 

 

So you are not in favour of the Swiss system, with all the anarchy and populist arbitrariness that so characterises it?

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1494591 18-Feb-2016 08:27
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Rikkitic:

 

jonathan18:

 

PhantomNVD: Let's face it, the government in this country (both sides) do whatever they like... Referendums aren't legally binding, there was no option about the flag selection necessity in the first place, and we all know that they are going to change it in spite of a majority of the population against doing so.

A government that doesn't listen to its people...

Democracy? NIMBY 😔

 

Thank god they're not binding... representative democracy doesn't by design provide its people with a guaranteed say on every last thing, including issues put to a referendum. As irritating, blind, self-serving and incompetent as our politicians can be, I'd take these downsides over a form of direct democracy that included binding referenda any day. Sometimes politicians need to lead change, ahead of the will of a "majority" of the population.

 

 

So you are not in favour of the Swiss system, with all the anarchy and populist arbitrariness that so characterises it?

 

 

 

God no! The collective "people" are too dumb for that level of power...


Mad Scientist
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  Reply # 1494785 18-Feb-2016 11:23
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jonathan18:

Rikkitic:


jonathan18:


PhantomNVD: Let's face it, the government in this country (both sides) do whatever they like... Referendums aren't legally binding, there was no option about the flag selection necessity in the first place, and we all know that they are going to change it in spite of a majority of the population against doing so.

A government that doesn't listen to its people...

Democracy? NIMBY 😔


Thank god they're not binding... representative democracy doesn't by design provide its people with a guaranteed say on every last thing, including issues put to a referendum. As irritating, blind, self-serving and incompetent as our politicians can be, I'd take these downsides over a form of direct democracy that included binding referenda any day. Sometimes politicians need to lead change, ahead of the will of a "majority" of the population.



So you are not in favour of the Swiss system, with all the anarchy and populist arbitrariness that so characterises it?


 


God no! The collective "people" are too dumb for that level of power...



Umm by definition the smart people aren't usually the ones running the country. They are usually too busy doing research, giving lectures, treating the sick, building things, arguing for Apple, and, in general, fixing the mess that the government create.

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  Reply # 1494869 18-Feb-2016 12:41
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Democracy is messy by its very nature, but there are different kinds of messiness. What I mainly see in our politicians is a few bright sparks on both sides, plus a lot of mediocre shopkeepers and bankers, all of them overpaid and overperked thanks to self-serving legislation, and most of them keeping as much distance from the electorate as possible, except in election year when they all go baby-kissing and promise-making. 'Politician' comes out at the bottom of surveys as a respected profession for a reason.

 

I don't know if a system based on public referenda would be any better, but I am not convinced it would be any worse. It does seem to work fairly well for the stable Swiss, with the possible proviso that they were the last country outside of Saudi Arabia to give women the vote. Or maybe they still haven't. I'm not sure.

 

So take a good look at the political process currently underway in America, and the fact that every single member of Congress is a millionaire (according to something I read somewhere, no citation) and think about someone as ignorant as Ben Carson or as over-inflated as Donald Trump being the next President of the world USA in a system where the executive wields a great deal of power. Rule by the unwashed masses doesn't sound like such a bad thing. 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1495134 18-Feb-2016 18:18
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No. Keep the flag.
Why:
1) the rest of the empire is already revolting. Costs for sick kiwis using britans NHS, non criminal kiwis being locked up in Aussie.
2) I see it for what it is a john key vanity project.
3) I feel it's condescending to have 2 referenda on this but not on matters of considerable importance such as tpp, gcsb, asset sales or debt repayment.

As far as democracy goes I don't have a problem with it. If the populous are too stupid to make the right decisions then all the more reason to focus on education.

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  Reply # 1496081 20-Feb-2016 09:00
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If the silver fern isn't a national symbol representative of New Zealand.

 

Why is it used on New Zealand soldiers grave stones?

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1496152 20-Feb-2016 11:27
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Do you think we should change our flag?

Yes.  

Why do you think that?

Disclaimer:  My parents were English. I'm an Australian who has lived in New Zealand for more that 30 years. I do not vote for John Key.

The Australian and NZ flags both have the same problem - they are boring cookie-cutter designs from a long-dead colonial past which say nothing about their countries.
The Union Jack is fine for the UK, but not for the South Pacific.

If there was a different option (ie not the Silver Fern) would you change your mind?

No

Did you agree with the Red Peak design being included in the first referendum?

Yes. I voted for it.

Was there another design you would have liked to see included in the first referendum? If so, which one?

Don't care - almost all of the short-listed designs were better than the existing design.

What do you think makes New Zealand special?

The people.

What symbols best represent New Zealand’s unique character?

The Southern Cross, koru and silver fern - NOT the Union Jack.

 

 





Sideface


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1496177 20-Feb-2016 12:36
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Do you think we should change our flag? Yes

Why do you think that? To show we are an independent country on our own right. This is 2016 not 1850
If there was a different option (ie not the Silver Fern) would you change your mind? No
Did you agree with the Red Peak design being included in the first referendum? No
Was there another design you would have liked to see included in the first referendum? No
What do you think makes New Zealand special? Our isolation
What symbols best represent New Zealand’s unique character? Silver fern

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  Reply # 1496227 20-Feb-2016 13:55
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D1023319:

 

The Union Jack represents our origin as a country and southern cross represents our location in world

 

  • And it shows the linkage to our brother Australia

 

 

 

Lastman:

 

I would have preferred not to have the Southern Cross stars as they are, essentially, also on the Australian flag but it is likely that Australia will also change it's flag, at some stage, and perhaps a common symbol is not inappropriate for close, similar neighbours.

 

 

 

 

One reason I like to keep the current flag is that I can tease Australians* by saying that they copied ours.

 

The NZ design was from 1869 adopted as the national flag in 1902. The Australian flag came out of a competition to mark the forming of the confederation of Australian states in 1901.

 

Alternatively, if Australians say it is an Australian design then I can agree. I can tell them that they copied the 1849 flag of the Anti-Transportation League and remind them of that heritage.

 

 

 

* I actually like the idea of Australian and NZ flags looking alike because we do have a lot in common.


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  Reply # 1496281 20-Feb-2016 15:04
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 Haven't read whole thred but here is my thoughts.

 

     

  1. Yes
  2. It does not represent NZ now nor when it was introduced in 1902, only shows our British heritage. The Southern cross could represent any number of countries.
  3. Its academic this was chosen rightly or wrongly, trying to get everyone to agree on a design would be akin to herding cats.
  4. as above, no point in revisiting it, it is what it is. I am actually growing to like it and like the fact it has the Silver fern which is easily recognizable by most nations as being NZ origin.
  5. Don't see the point of this question its like you want to make a point it shouldn't have happened. The majority voted for it regardless of what people think.
  6. Every country has something that is special to them but , again, it is mostly subjective
  7. Anything that doesn't have the Union Jack on it.

 

 

 

I have to say this seems to be looking for reasons why we shouldn't change the vote or try and change what has already been decided. Suffice we now have a say in what we believe is right for us unlike when the current flag was adopted.

 

Unfortunately a lot of what I hear from those opposed to changing flag seems to be political which is unfortunate as people should be looking at this a great opportunity to voice their opinion. People may not get what they want and should accept the majority has. Personally I don't believe the flag will change but hopefully there is a next time and it does.

 

 

 

 





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  Reply # 1496283 20-Feb-2016 15:07
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turnin: No. Keep the flag.
Why:
1) the rest of the empire is already revolting. Costs for sick kiwis using britans NHS, non criminal kiwis being locked up in Aussie.
2) I see it for what it is a john key vanity project.
3) I feel it's condescending to have 2 referenda on this but not on matters of considerable importance such as tpp, gcsb, asset sales or debt repayment.

As far as democracy goes I don't have a problem with it. If the populous are too stupid to make the right decisions then all the more reason to focus on education.

 

 

 

what if the populous are right and you are wrong.





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  Reply # 1496284 20-Feb-2016 15:08
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Azzura:

 

If the silver fern isn't a national symbol representative of New Zealand.

 

Why is it used on New Zealand soldiers grave stones?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Touche





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  Reply # 1496302 20-Feb-2016 15:41
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jeffnz:

Azzura:


If the silver fern isn't a national symbol representative of New Zealand.


Why is it used on New Zealand soldiers grave stones?


 




 


 


Touche



Yep. Some want a NZ flag and some want a British flag.

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