Should Geekzone be a model for New Zealand?

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Networkn
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#1529467 10-Apr-2016 13:39

joker97: Singapore is ruled by a rational dictator (? Group).

If they want to take your land to build a road across it, you have no choice but to sell at whatever they (govt) say they'll pay you.

If they say the economy is bad they will apply a pay cut across the board and you will follow.

If they say something, you do it.

If you challenge the govt, they find a way to bankrupt you by digging your dirt and applying some law (or by suing you and winning an exorbitant pay out).

And lastly the minimum time to call an election is 14 days. They will suddenly dissolve parliament and announce an election in 14 days. Yes that's two weeks not 14 working days.

And? Your point is?

In exchange you get a lawful community, where you are pretty safe no matter where you go, at whatever time of the day or night. They have few drug issues, high levels of education and a world-class public transport system.

tdgeek

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#1529468 10-Apr-2016 13:50

networkn:

joker97: Singapore is ruled by a rational dictator (? Group).

If they want to take your land to build a road across it, you have no choice but to sell at whatever they (govt) say they'll pay you.

If they say the economy is bad they will apply a pay cut across the board and you will follow.

If they say something, you do it.

If you challenge the govt, they find a way to bankrupt you by digging your dirt and applying some law (or by suing you and winning an exorbitant pay out).

And lastly the minimum time to call an election is 14 days. They will suddenly dissolve parliament and announce an election in 14 days. Yes that's two weeks not 14 working days.

And? Your point is?

In exchange you get a lawful community, where you are pretty safe no matter where you go, at whatever time of the day or night. They have few drug issues, high levels of education and a world-class public transport system.

And clean, thanks to the what used to be $500 fine for dropping anything. Big gutters too!

networkn

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#1529469 10-Apr-2016 13:52

Personally I could live in Singapore quite easily, but then I am law abiding and don't have an issue (Generally) with authority.

gzt

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#1529479 10-Apr-2016 14:18

Looking at it from another perspective Geekzone model maybe has more in common with the office of the speaker acting as moderation.

Linuxluver

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#1529496 10-Apr-2016 14:40

Rikkitic:

Geekzone is not a democracy. The One Who Rules makes that abundantly clear. He governs with a Firm Hand and brooks no nonsense. As a result, Geekzone is one of the best-run sites of its kind on the Internet. Discussions here are disciplined, well-moderated, and generally of a high standard. No bad language allowed. No personal attacks. No flames. No pardon. Two wrong moves (one, if the transgression is severe enough) and you are out.

For these and other reasons, Geekzone is also very popular. In fact, it is a lot like Singapore, a tight ship with a stern captain at the helm. No democratic nonsense here.

Contrast this with 10 minutes of Parliament TV during Question Time. I have to wonder, and now I have to ask, should Geekzone be a model for New Zealand? Is this regulated, censored, authoritarian regime actually the way governments should be run? Not advocating, just asking the question.

The problem you'd strike right away is that as there is no existing "firm captain" with an indisputable right of command, there cannot be one in NZ.

So the (proprietor-based) Geekzone model fails at the gate. NZ has no equivalent proprietor and can not have one without murder and violence...and then new, would-be proprietors see how useful those tactics are. Check out how that worked for the Roman Emperors (as they assassinated one after the other until the Empire collapsed).

Representative democracy evolved BECAUSE the general populace - and the more well-to-do, inparticular - got very tired of their lives being up-ended by "firm captains".

I'm surprised this even needs explaining.....though anyone lacking knowledge of history may well have no idea why things are the way they are.

Parliament's "Question Time" could be improved by voters electing better people - particularly from Labour and National. Too much deadwood there. Especially as now MMP makes that much more possible than it was when two (relatively closed) elites controlled the only means (Labour and National) to elect anyone.

Geekzone would be a very different place if everyone - *everyone*- HAD to be here...and no one owned it. That would be a much more accurate simulation of life in NZ.

Bring on Question Time, where we challenge the governing to answer any question we pose....or face the consequences at the next election.

Meanwhile, there are people who have left Geekzone because the firm captain isn't for them. They can do that with a web site. More problematic with a country.

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Linuxluver

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#1529501 10-Apr-2016 14:48

networkn:

joker97: Singapore is ruled by a rational dictator (? Group).

If they want to take your land to build a road across it, you have no choice but to sell at whatever they (govt) say they'll pay you.

If they say the economy is bad they will apply a pay cut across the board and you will follow.

If they say something, you do it.

If you challenge the govt, they find a way to bankrupt you by digging your dirt and applying some law (or by suing you and winning an exorbitant pay out).

And lastly the minimum time to call an election is 14 days. They will suddenly dissolve parliament and announce an election in 14 days. Yes that's two weeks not 14 working days.

And? Your point is?

In exchange you get a lawful community, where you are pretty safe no matter where you go, at whatever time of the day or night. They have few drug issues, high levels of education and a world-class public transport system.

When corruption occurs...and it does...there is no way to challenge it. This is well documented. The list of honest, benevolent dictators is extraordinarily short. Fingers of one hand. The much more usual - almost mundane or cliche - is a murderous kleptocracy with the primary thief in command. A "Firm Captain" among pirates. This was human history for 20,000 years and more......until about a century ago (at best and only in a handful of countries).

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#1529521 10-Apr-2016 15:53

They do a lot more than question time in parliament. Actually Law making and other issues.

Question time is the media's favourite. It mirrors what goes on in the pits at Westminster. Except that the British are far more eloquent and have vastly wider vocabulary.

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networkn

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#1529528 10-Apr-2016 16:07

Linuxluver:

When corruption occurs...and it does...there is no way to challenge it. This is well documented. The list of honest, benevolent dictators is extraordinarily short. Fingers of one hand. The much more usual - almost mundane or cliche - is a murderous kleptocracy with the primary thief in command. A "Firm Captain" among pirates. This was human history for 20,000 years and more......until about a century ago (at best and only in a handful of countries).

Sure, this the "downside" etc. Nothing is perfect. I don't mind democracy, however, in places like NZ they need to be able to go into "special" mode, for helping deal with things like the red tape around natural disasters, and handle things differently when it comes to roading projects (There is no sane country in the world who's roads and public transport projects should be held up by native legend or 1 person holding out for more money for their land).

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#1529540 10-Apr-2016 16:35

networkn:
Linuxluver:

When corruption occurs...and it does...there is no way to challenge it. This is well documented. The list of honest, benevolent dictators is extraordinarily short. Fingers of one hand. The much more usual - almost mundane or cliche - is a murderous kleptocracy with the primary thief in command. A "Firm Captain" among pirates. This was human history for 20,000 years and more......until about a century ago (at best and only in a handful of countries).

Sure, this the "downside" etc. Nothing is perfect. I don't mind democracy, however, in places like NZ they need to be able to go into "special" mode, for helping deal with things like the red tape around natural disasters, and handle things differently when it comes to roading projects (There is no sane country in the world who's roads and public transport projects should be held up by native legend or 1 person holding out for more money for their land).

In reality an additional 20k was spent on a minor modification to that road. It is unfortunate the project was halted for a bit and that no doubt cost a_lot, but that could easily have been avoided with prior consultation. Pluralistic democracy win.

As for holdouts to public works, NZ's Public Works Act essentially allows seizure with compensation, so that is not really a problem either.

If you are planning to build Trump Tower in NZ, and a small holder does not want to sell, ok well that could be a problem. But even then there are ways to have the government get it for you under public works, if the project is truly nationally significant. But if that is still a problem, well, you could run for office and have cabinet elect you Prime Minister. I dare you to try that too quickly in Singapore ; ).

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#1529585 10-Apr-2016 17:40

Linuxluver: Representative democracy evolved BECAUSE the general populace - and the more well-to-do, inparticular - got very tired of their lives being up-ended by "firm captains".

I'd note that the 20th century is full of examples of the populations wanting and appointing or installing "firm captains" due to various modern incarnations of the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

Linuxluver

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#1529611 10-Apr-2016 18:31

roobarb:

Linuxluver: Representative democracy evolved BECAUSE the general populace - and the more well-to-do, inparticular - got very tired of their lives being up-ended by "firm captains".

I'd note that the 20th century is full of examples of the populations wanting and appointing or installing "firm captains" due to various modern incarnations of the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

Sure...and look how well that worked out for them:

Hitler's Nazis got 40% of the vote in the last real election. By far the largest single party, but a clear majority of Germans didn't vote for him.

Mussolini was the leader of the fascists in Italy, but the King invited him to restore order amid the chaos (he probably helped create). He then made himself dictator.

Mugabe? Elected in good faith...and then he cheated.

Most of these examples are people who were elected in good faith....and then they assumed powers beyond what they were elected to do.

Do you have any examples of anyone elected by a majority of the population - knowingly - to be dictator?

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roobarb

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#1529614 10-Apr-2016 18:41

Linuxluver: Do you have any examples of anyone elected by a majority of the population - knowingly - to be dictator?

Technically you don't elect dictators, they become dictators after the fact by changing the rules to address some apparent emergency.

But hey, he was a "firm captain" and promised to solve all our problems. He said he was going to make the country great again...

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#1530067 11-Apr-2016 13:51

Personally I like parliamentary monarchies with that benevolent usurper ;-)

Anyway the reason why democracy is breaking down not only in NZ is simple. The majority of people have forgotten that active participation is a premise for democracy. You can't just lean back and let others do it. Once you do that voter parcipation goes down, politicians at the extremes (at the moment right) can garner advantages and win. Then an aura of "I cant change anything" emerges and voter numbers and participation goes down again. You now have a non functioning democracy, voters that don't care and lots of buzz on facebook. Rien va plus.

You get what you vote is truer than ever.

So what the original question is, is what a world post democracy will look like. We are probably in the last stages before world oligarchy. Not sure if next up is the rule of "security" agencies and how that fits in with the global enterprises.

So the real question is not what comes after but at the moment we should be asking do we want to save democracy or are we OK with going the next step, whatever it may be.

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#1531302 13-Apr-2016 07:56

tdgeek:

Just read two articles on Trump. Older couple support him. Shivers. Another said that if he was President that would keep ISIS away. Like hell, they would be all over him, jabbing, wanting to provoke him into a military rushed response. It would exacerbate the issue. Godzone is ok.

Yes and we all know what Trumps military response would be " Oh look it's ISIS fire the nukes boys"

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#1531305 13-Apr-2016 08:06

If you protest against him then you're "probably isis" so watch out.

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