Left out of the Loop

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Reply # 1529670 10-Apr-2016 21:47

Linuxluver:

Rikkitic:

Maybe we're not as incorrupt as we always thought we were. Isn't it interesting how these kinds of things only seem to emerge thanks to leakers like Manning and Snowden. Where are their medals again? Oh, right.

NZ is becoming steadily more corrupt.

Not hard to see why.....there are now hundreds of thousands of people here from countries where corruption is a normal part of everyday life. If only 10% of them forget WHY they left their own corrupt countries to come here......then we have a real problem. Knowing that, the present government has skimped on money to monitor corrupt activities...so even as we really should be mindful of the need for closer monitoring and enforcement.....the reverse is happening.

It's as though they want it to happen: This government wants NZ to be more corrupt.

Yeah like the prime minister having private meetings with backers from overseas (chinese) who wanted to change the flag.

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Reply # 1529684 10-Apr-2016 22:25

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Linuxluver:
I suspect no NZ media were involved because both of the two main daily newspaper groups could be relied upon to call the Beehive and warn them....and thus every other country.

& @Dratsab said something very similar. I'd like to ask you both, is there any particular incident or events that gave rise to that feeling or suspicion?

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Reply # 1529695 10-Apr-2016 22:54

Not sure I believe NZ has never been corrupt.

Giving jobs to your mates rather than carrying out a proper competitive process is a form of corruption and that happens all the time. If by corruption you mean brown paper bags full of notes, then perhaps, although the various things like Brierly etc in the past seem to fail the sniff test to some extent.

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Reply # 1529771 11-Apr-2016 05:22

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gzt:
Linuxluver:

I suspect no NZ media were involved because both of the two main daily newspaper groups could be relied upon to call the Beehive and warn them....and thus every other country.

& @Dratsab said something very similar. I'd like to ask you both, is there any particular incident or events that gave rise to that feeling or suspicion?

First hand experience, having had to deal with a number of reporters over the years. Second hand experience, what friends/colleagues have told me about their dealings with reporters.

Every day I see and hear 'stories' which could have been so much more complete if only basic questions had been asked, or value added if basic intell principles had been applied.

Aside from which there's nothing like a good ole generalisation to keep things lively :-)

Linuxluver

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Reply # 1529800 11-Apr-2016 08:24

gzt:
Linuxluver:

I suspect no NZ media were involved because both of the two main daily newspaper groups could be relied upon to call the Beehive and warn them....and thus every other country.

& @Dratsab said something very similar. I'd like to ask you both, is there any particular incident or events that gave rise to that feeling or suspicion?

You must not read the Herald or Stuff or you wouldn't have to ask. One example would be the way the waitress with the pony tail was handled by a Herald reporter....Look into the details there...and the reporter's relationship with the PM.

It only takes one. There is more than one.

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Reply # 1529936 11-Apr-2016 10:23

Dratsab:
gzt:
Linuxluver:

I suspect no NZ media were involved because both of the two main daily newspaper groups could be relied upon to call the Beehive and warn them....and thus every other country.

& @Dratsab said something very similar. I'd like to ask you both, is there any particular incident or events that gave rise to that feeling or suspicion?

First hand experience, having had to deal with a number of reporters over the years. Second hand experience, what fruends/colleagues have told me about their dealings with reporters.

Every day I see and hear 'stories' which could have been so much more complete if only basic questions had been asked, or value added if basic intell principles had been applied.

Aside from which there's nothing like a good ole generalisation to keep things lively :-)

Our local paper, which is part of the Herald stable, is pretty bad in this regard. When reporting on some major local controversies, it is often hard to know what the article is even about. The paper has one or two pretty good 'journalists', but it also has some pretty dire 'reporters'. If New Zealand really was kept out of the loop due to the poor quality of our press, then we are in serious trouble.

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tdgeek

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Reply # 1530033 11-Apr-2016 12:52

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Rikkitic:

What to do what to do? I wasn't going to mention this in view of some recent feedback I have had. Then I realised I was censoring myself out of fear of adverse reactions. Not cool, as someone here might say. Some things are just important, regardless of much they may upset the Tories amongst us. Am I just dissing on New Zealand again? Maybe I am critical because I actually care about this country. It is just a shame our good journalists don't have more support for serious investigative work.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/201796151/in-and-out-of-the-loop-on-the-biggest-leak-ever

There you go again, anyone who doesnt agree, is labelled

Back to topic, NZ is small, who cares about us. Corruption here is lower then many countries buts its far from low. We get mentioned 60,000 times? How often were others mentioned, poor journalism, give a number give no baseline. This is just yet another human trait that got out on the world stage. That will never change, and I'm not surprised that if NZ has any sort of link it will be pounced on. Makes for news, thats good, and fish and chips the next night. This latest issue is an issue, but how important is it, compared to how important the media are making it? Thats the question. Relativity.

Technofreak

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Reply # 1530051 11-Apr-2016 13:16

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The words "Mountain" and "Molehill" come to mind so far as New Zealand is concerned when it come to the Panama Papers.

60,000 mentions out of a total of how many mentions exactly?

Of those 60,000 mentions how many are repeats with respect to individual cases?

Of those 60,000 how many relate to New Zealand residents/citizens.

Of those 60,000 how many are relatively recent?

Historically we have been more trusting than other countries and as a result our laws have been, or were, rather more relaxed than other countries. New Zealand tightened up it's banking laws in recent years to stop unscrupulous overseas people using our banking system to launder and hide money from the tax man.

While there's not doubt some New Zealanders have used offshore facilities to evade tax, I suspect you'll find most of this reported activity relates to the historic activity of foreign individuals.

I think the whole Panama Paper issue needs to be put into perspective.

Frankly I'm more upset about the "legal" tax evasion that is perpetuated by multi-nationals like Apple.

As for Nicky Hager, I don't see him as being squeaky clean. Yes,the police over stepped the mark searching his house and taking away the computer disks, BUT you have to remember the information on those disks was stolen property. In my opinion Nicky Hager has been aiding and abetting a thief.

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tripper1000

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Reply # 1530058 11-Apr-2016 13:33

Weren't most investigative journalists let go during Helen Clarkes rein? Do we actually have any anymore that could have contributed to the analysis to the Panama Papers?

I recall she shuttered them out & they couldn't do their (political) jobs anymore. They were not Helen's friend at all, with the Labor party relying of the majority votes of dodgy characters link Philip Field and Dover Samuels, and her counterfeit art signings, and 160kph police escorts to the rugby, the Labor party was held together with sticky-tape. To keep old Winnie from sticking his nose into fray & blowing whistles she had to send him off shore with the Foreign affairs portfolio.

Who had forgotten about this stuff eh? We're not as pure as the driven snow are we?

I second the sentiments about the poor professionalism of reporters. I've had passing contact with a bunch and the inaccuracy, laziness and bias never cease to stagger me.

gzt

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Reply # 1530070 11-Apr-2016 13:53

Linuxluver:
gzt:
Linuxluver:

I suspect no NZ media were involved because both of the two main daily newspaper groups could be relied upon to call the Beehive and warn them....and thus every other country.

& @Dratsab said something very similar. I'd like to ask you both, is there any particular incident or events that gave rise to that feeling or suspicion?

You must not read the Herald or Stuff or you wouldn't have to ask. One example would be the way the waitress with the pony tail was handled by a Herald reporter....Look into the details there...and the reporter's relationship with the PM.

It only takes one. There is more than one.

Yeah I remember that one now with the heads up text to the prime minister. Many places in the world I suspect the reporter would have been let go rapidly and publicly to preserve the reputation of the paper. That did not happen.

It is an odd one though, the reporter was actually the gossip columnist. As far as I know the particular person not really a journalist in the professional sense so maybe not surprising there were multiple ethical issues with the entire story and it's execution.

It certainly does point to a low standard if nothing else.

gzt

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Reply # 1530072 11-Apr-2016 14:08

Technofreak: In my opinion Nicky Hager has been aiding and abetting a thief.

The court did not see it that way and upheld the interests of society in having some protections for journalists in the public interest. Iirc something similar happened for a whaleoil case.

Technofreak

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Reply # 1530077 11-Apr-2016 14:28

gzt:
Technofreak: In my opinion Nicky Hager has been aiding and abetting a thief.
The court did not see it that way and upheld the interests of society in having some protections for journalists in the public interest. Iirc something similar happened for a whaleoil case.

I think you'll find the court was ruling regarding the methods used by the police to retrieve the data from Hager's house. The question of where that data came from or how it was obtained by Rawshark hasn't, to my knowledge, been tested in court.

Rawshark hacked into someone's computer to get that data. That's no different to entering a property and taking physical documents that don't belong to you. Either way it's theft.

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Rikkitic

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Reply # 1530085 11-Apr-2016 14:37

Nearly all leaks are theft. Sometimes it serves a higher purpose.

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Technofreak

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Reply # 1530094 11-Apr-2016 15:04

Rikkitic:

Nearly all leaks are theft. Sometimes it serves a higher purpose.

True, but there is quite a difference between being legally privy to information which the recipient's conscience says they need to 'act" on to blatant "breaking and entering" as Rawshark did and then handing the ill gotten goods onto Nicky Hager.

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roobarb

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Reply # 1530095 11-Apr-2016 15:05

Rikkitic: Nearly all leaks are theft. Sometimes it serves a higher purpose.

Have you actually stolen something if the original remains? Copyright fair use/right-to-know could be a defence.

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