IN or OUT? All on in the UK for the next 10 weeks.

Forums › Off topic › IN or OUT? All on in the UK for the next 10 weeks.

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#1570005 11-Jun-2016 14:54

ScuL:

I think it can be done too, and I can't think of anything better than a federal Europe.

Plus; the only way we are ever going to be able to explore space in a peaceful way is by harmonising the world.

Why do you think a federal Europe is a good idea? Maybe you would like little old NZ to be part of an Asiatic federation. I don't think many NZ'ers would agree with you.

And there is no reason why countries can't co-operate on space exploration without being in a federation. They already do to a certain extent eg the ISS.

IMO bigger is nearly always worse not better.

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gzt

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#1570013 11-Jun-2016 15:14

The fair number of Brits who planned or already bought and retired in cheap(er) and sunnier Eurozone areas will be for remain. As will their relatives.

I suspect a lot of younger people view anti euro sentiment similar to the sometimes unhinged ravings of the 'states rights' anti-federal groups in the USA.

Many of the polls being quoted are small and oddly weighted. But for sure it will be fairly close.

Fred99

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#1571611 14-Jun-2016 12:53

FT "Poll of Polls" is now showing 47 for Brexit 45 for remaining, 9% undecided.

Wow.

DaveB

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#1571785 14-Jun-2016 16:11

Fred99:

FT "Poll of Polls" is now showing 47 for Brexit 45 for remaining, 9% undecided.

Wow.

Expect that to go up again in the next few days.

Geektastic

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#1572016 14-Jun-2016 23:10

Friend got a postal vote as he's away overseas on the date. He sent me an iPhone photo of the big cross in the "Leave" box before he mailed it!

Fred99

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#1575479 17-Jun-2016 08:37

The polls have indeed shifted - ft's "poll of polls" now showing 48/43 for exit, with undecided at 8%.

Not sure how the murder of an MP who'd been sympathetic to the plight of refugees, killed by an apparent Brexit fanatic heard shouting "Britain First" will impact on the vote.

Thoroughly sickening news over the past few days, Orlando, the campaign at street level for Trump having supporters wearing "Trump that B----" tee shirts and "Life's a b---- - don't vote for one" unofficial campaign buttons, the Orlando massacre "everyone knows" was Obama's fault being tweeted across the planet, and now this.

It does have a parallel to the rise of fascism. The response to the enemy of the west's creation is looking more and more like creating a far more dangerous destructive force from within.

ScuL

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#1575765 17-Jun-2016 14:23

SJB:

Why do you think a federal Europe is a good idea? Maybe you would like little old NZ to be part of an Asiatic federation. I don't think many NZ'ers would agree with you.

And there is no reason why countries can't co-operate on space exploration without being in a federation. They already do to a certain extent eg the ISS.

Harmonisation of legislation, predominantly on financial matters but also civil punishment. There are many unfair scenarios currently either based on country of residence or country of purchase.. the amount of scenarios I can think of are nearly infinite. For instance how come a passenger vehicle is €10k cheaper in Germany than in Denmark or Holland? Or what if you physically reside in Belgium but are still forced to pay Dutch health care fees because you work for a Dutch employer besides getting free coverage from the Belgian government? There are thousands of these scenarios applying to vast ranges of subjects, from purchasing goods & services, to benefits and entitlements, cross-border employment.. or even worse, cross-border criminal activities. The result is quite cumbersome and the further the EU integrates the fewer these problems arise. Many EU countries already have a decent overlap in terms of legislation, it won't be more than a century away to level it out entirely.

When it comes to NZ (or other regions of the world) becoming part of federations, this is not a matter of choice. It WILL happen, whether I, you or anybody else wants it or disapproves. We're talking about globalisation taking shape over the course of centuries. People 2 centuries ago would have never approved some of the things that have happened in the last few decades, it's inevitable that things will move in this direction.

You can't bring peace elsewhere if you can't find peace on your own turf. What the Brexit is doing right now is dividing a nation, and not just a nation, it is triggering fascism in Britain and the rest of the continent. In fact the events of the last few weeks are tossing us back in history whereas we should be looking at finding ways to progress and move forward.

Haere taka mua, taka muri; kaua e wha.

malpasolan

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#1575777 17-Jun-2016 14:43

Why does the UK need to stay in the EU?

British get their clothes from either US or Asia (in general). Same can be said for the technology they buy too and for their food, they are pretty much self sufficient.

Are the US and Asia going to boycott the UK if they opt out of the EU? - NO

If the UK ever came under a war-like attack then the US would be there before the joint EU collective could gather for a committee meeting.

The European Union is one gigantic joke and money splurge.

Actually the should rename it the Uralpean Union because its knocking on Russia's door.

wellygary

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#1575807 17-Jun-2016 15:04

Fred99:

The polls have indeed shifted - ft's "poll of polls" now showing 48/43 for exit, with undecided at 8%..

Next week is gonna be a doozy,

Last I heard Trump would be in the UK for the 22nd and this will likely enrage the Bremain camp.

Whether it helps get more over to rexit I am not sure, but it will certainly be a spectacle, and will serve Cameron right for dragging Obama into a totally domestic UK decision...

malpasolan

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#1575809 17-Jun-2016 15:09

Well if Brexit wins then they better win by a convincing margin because Cameron is on record as saying he won't even consider leaving the EU if the winning margin is only a few percent.

ScuL

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#1575830 17-Jun-2016 15:41

malpasolan:

Why does the UK need to stay in the EU?

That's some very basic questioning, I would prefer to turn it around by asking why the UK would need to leave? The benefits outweigh the costs quite simply.
Either your knowledge on European economics is limited or you don't understand the depth in which customs tariffs affect trade of goods & services.

British get their clothes from either US or Asia (in general). Same can be said for the technology they buy too and for their food, they are pretty much self sufficient.

All clothing products imported into the EU are subject to 4% customs duties, which is quite low. Manufacturing however occurs in Europe as well, mainly in countries such as Spain, Italy, Bulgaria and Romania. These items are 0-rated.

If you're curious about how customs tariffs affect importing into the EU I can refer you to EU Journal L285/30O http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:L:2015:285:FULL&from=NL
(warning 932 pages)

Technology is usually subject to much higher duties (between 20 and 45% depending on the type). The EU have negotiated lower rates with many manufacturing countries such as the US, Japan, China. By exiting the EU the UK will need to renegotiate their own tariffs.

Are the US and Asia going to boycott the UK if they opt out of the EU? - NO

As above, no not a boycott, however duties will be reinstated and will require renegotiation.

If the UK ever came under a war-like attack then the US would be there before the joint EU collective could gather for a committee meeting.

I'd say this is more a role of the NATO than anything else, as the EU does not have an official defence procedure (it's not a military institution in any way)

The European Union is one gigantic joke and money splurge.

It's the biggest single market zone in the world.. not quite the joke.

Haere taka mua, taka muri; kaua e wha.

ScuL

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#1575848 17-Jun-2016 16:11

In addition to the above, talking about technology, I just came across this important article:

https://www.meijburg.com/news/ita-eu-import-duties-on-a-wide-range-of-electronic-products-eliminated-as-of-july-1-2016

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=39fc97ed-61d2-45b3-b7a4-6c431458832c

If the UK leave the EU the benefits of this agreement will be void to the UK.

Haere taka mua, taka muri; kaua e wha.

malpasolan

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#1575852 17-Jun-2016 16:16

ScuL:

malpasolan:

Why does the UK need to stay in the EU?

That's some very basic questioning, ....

Indeed it is and it's how a lot of my countrymen are looking at it regardless if it's right or wrong.

As for economic/market zones, I would class China as the biggest.

Also for defence, you neglected the European Defence Agency.

Anyway, in about a week we will know.

ScuL

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#1575894 17-Jun-2016 16:34

malpasolan:

As for economic/market zones, I would class China as the biggest.

Hmm no..

http://www.worldometers.info/population/china-eu-usa-japan-comparison/

nearly twice as big.

Also this came out today too:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-36545639

Haere taka mua, taka muri; kaua e wha.

malpasolan

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#1575919 17-Jun-2016 17:08

ScuL:

Also this came out today too:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-36545639

It's getting quite comical with all the scaremongering that the bremain group push into the media. The best recently was that the English Premier League would collapse as European players would find it hard to get work visas etc...

Actually England might (with a miracle) become a world class team again if some true English talent was allowed to play in a league which is swamped by overpaid and under performing foreigners.

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