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  Reply # 1568499 9-Jun-2016 10:13
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I grew up in a street where most parents smacked their kids (open hand to backside). My friends parents had permission to smack me and vice versa.  We all used to feel sorry for the kids in one family who got grounded instead of being smacked.  None of us grew up to be violent.  We all finished 7th form, completed tertiary study and found work etc.

 

When I went to school (decile 2 school in Rotorua) I didn't even know how to throw a punch.  I learned pretty fast however, because there were plenty of highly violent kids at my school.  These kids weren't smacked at home. They were beaten hard enoguh to leave bruises (usually with fists/implements).

 

I think that is a key difference: Smacking vs Beating.

 

I understand that is what Bradford et al were trying to address with the so called 'anti-smacking' legislation.  Adults were beating kids and juries were interpreting that as smacking and acquitting them. By outlawing smacking there was no safe haven for child beaters.  I get that.

 

The legislation is in force and the extreme end of physical abuse of children persists.  I wouldn't be surprised if beatings still happen behind closed doors.

 

 

 

Fred99:

 

dickytim:
Rikkitic:

 

If you need to hit a child to discipline it, something is already wrong with your parenting skills. The only thing this teaches the child is that using brute force on someone weaker than you is a good way of getting what you want.

 



I would disagree with your view on this. A smack isn't about brute force its about consequenses for actions in a simple to understand form.

 

Yes - very simple to understand and get the message across:

 

The way to deal with behaviour you don't like is to initiate violence

 

and

 

Always do what you're told - or use of violence against you is justified

 





Mike

gzt

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  Reply # 1568595 9-Jun-2016 12:19
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frankv:

gzt: Justice is important but imo the focus needs to be 100% on parents and parenting.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in most of these cases leading to death it is a long process of multiple physical injuries over a long period of time. Then finally although everything else can be hidden, lied, etc - death cannot.

So I think it is reasonable to assume there are a massive number of kids who suffer this. Daily. Today. Ongoing.

I'm going to guess that kids in school have a better chance of being noticed having these problems.

Pre-school kids, well, less people are going to know.

So one contributor towards a solution may be getting more of at risk kids into some form of very early childcare/shared play and the social networks that tend to come naturally with that.

At the same time there is an opportunity to work on the parenting skills.


Teachers, including pre-school, are aware of child abuse. I agree that therefore getting kids into pre-school is important. Except that pre-school is for those who can afford it. And obviously if your child has signs of abuse, you aren't going to take them to play-group that week.


Maybe mandatory medical examinations every 3 months for *all* under-5s? Or monthly for kids identified as being at risk? This wouldn't need to be big-deal stuff... a Community Health worker or Plunket nurse (do we still have Plunket?) could go round doing the visits?


 



I'm thinking preschool and parenting groups etc have a markedly protective effect, which means that the issue simply does not occur as much, ie; incidence drops due to increased social links and sharing of parenting technique that comes naturally in those situations.

I posted a link to a graph earlier with abuse death rates for different oecd countries. NZ the worst, and UK was the best.

The UK has a pretty good network of preschool childcare from 2 years old, also a pretty long tradition of council and cooperative preschool care prior to any central government provision.

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  Reply # 1568630 9-Jun-2016 12:48
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Fred99:

 

dickytim:
Rikkitic:

 

If you need to hit a child to discipline it, something is already wrong with your parenting skills. The only thing this teaches the child is that using brute force on someone weaker than you is a good way of getting what you want.

 

 

 

 

 



I would disagree with your view on this. A smack isn't about brute force its about consequenses for actions in a simple to understand form.

 

 

 

Yes - very simple to understand and get the message across:

 

The way to deal with behaviour you don't like is to initiate violence

 

and

 

Always do what you're told - or use of violence against you is justified

 

 

A smack on the bum is not violence, until it is done in anger, until you can grasp that as a concept we are just going to go around is circles and I am going to continue to believe you are wrong.


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  Reply # 1568634 9-Jun-2016 12:51
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MikeB4:

 

dickytim:

 

gzt: I was googling for some stats on NZ child death statistics and coincidently saw some articles about Marches for Moko, there have been several over the past month in various towns and are ongoing. I don't know anything about it except what I read on Stuff. Is it organised by Sensible Sentencing Trust? That seems kind of weird because McVicar opposed the anti-smacking legislation and looks like he is just using this as a bandwagon. It's a much bigger issue.

 

 

 

I am going to disagree that opposing the anti-smacking bill has anything to do with condoning, or not doing anything about child abuse. Opposing the anti-smacking bill was about allowing parents to use a reasonable amount of discipline on their children.

 

To me these marches are right up the alley of Sensible Sentencing.

 

 

dont think of it as anti smacking but as positive parenting

 

 

 

 

Oh, every child gets a medal/is a winner mentality. :P


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  Reply # 1568637 9-Jun-2016 12:54
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MikeB4:

 

Geektastic:
dickytim:

 

gzt: I was googling for some stats on NZ child death statistics and coincidently saw some articles about Marches for Moko, there have been several over the past month in various towns and are ongoing. I don't know anything about it except what I read on Stuff. Is it organised by Sensible Sentencing Trust? That seems kind of weird because McVicar opposed the anti-smacking legislation and looks like he is just using this as a bandwagon. It's a much bigger issue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am going to disagree that opposing the anti-smacking bill has anything to do with condoning, or not doing anything about child abuse. Opposing the anti-smacking bill was about allowing parents to use a reasonable amount of discipline on their children.

 

 

 

To me these marches are right up the alley of Sensible Sentencing.

 



Marches. That's useful.

 

 

 

They can raise awareness (something that is clearly needed) and can bring change, remember the Hikoi lead by Dame Whena Cooper? that brought about incredible change in Aotearoa New Zealand.

 

 

I am going to have to agree with you one this one, but go further and say it is more a way for the people to tell the government that we need something to be done. Unfortunately this gets diminished by professional protesters and hangers on that often don't know what they are marching for or protesting about.


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  Reply # 1568641 9-Jun-2016 13:00
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Why do we always assume government has the answers?  I see solutions for societal problems coming less and less from government because the processes of government prevent responsiveness and efficient use of money. 

 

Community groups funded by donations I think offer more hope for front-line services.





Mike

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  Reply # 1568710 9-Jun-2016 14:46
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MikeAqua:

 

Why do we always assume government has the answers?  I see solutions for societal problems coming less and less from government because the processes of government prevent responsiveness and efficient use of money. 

 

Community groups funded by donations I think offer more hope for front-line services.

 

 

 

 

You think so?

 

I see a general trend for people to care less about the plight of others - especially if they're in a different social class.

 

Some are even whining about how much tax they pay - despite income taxes being much lower than they were 30 years ago, and much less "punitive" than those in place in other first-world social democracies.

 

There seem to be more cans of pet food than human food dropped in respective charity bins at supermarkets.  Posts about cat or dog abuse on twitter, reddit, facebook seem to get far more attention than posts about the abject poverty of billions we share the planet with.  As soon as there's an article about abject poverty in NZ, expect snide comments about there being a Sky TV dish on the roof of the house or a KFC wrapper in the garbage.

 

 


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  Reply # 1568716 9-Jun-2016 14:55
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MikeAqua:

 

Why do we always assume government has the answers?  I see solutions for societal problems coming less and less from government because the processes of government prevent responsiveness and efficient use of money. 

 

Community groups funded by donations I think offer more hope for front-line services.

 

 

 

 

Iwi Groups and other organisations are working very hard but unfortunately there is not enough money and they do not have the legal clout to take action. Even Government agencies like CYF are struggling because of funding restrictions and constantly having to make cut backs when demand is growing.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1568767 9-Jun-2016 15:47
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Put more simply.  I would rather donate more to charity than pay more tax.  I currently pay tax and donate to charity because its the only way to get stuff done.  Good charities are efficient and effective. 

 

Government has been inefficient and ineffective throughout my lifetime on social issues like violence and poverty.  If I pay government more tax they will simply waste more money on back office processes and nothing will change.

 

I see charitable donations as a free market solution to early intervention and surveillance in societal problems. 

 

Leave govt to be the enforcement.

 

Yes - charitable donations involve a group of people paying more than others - but then so does a graduated tax system ...

 

 

 

Fred99:

 

MikeAqua:

 

Why do we always assume government has the answers?  I see solutions for societal problems coming less and less from government because the processes of government prevent responsiveness and efficient use of money. 

 

Community groups funded by donations I think offer more hope for front-line services.

 

 

 

 

You think so?

 

I see a general trend for people to care less about the plight of others - especially if they're in a different social class.

 

Some are even whining about how much tax they pay - despite income taxes being much lower than they were 30 years ago, and much less "punitive" than those in place in other first-world social democracies.

 

There seem to be more cans of pet food than human food dropped in respective charity bins at supermarkets.  Posts about cat or dog abuse on twitter, reddit, facebook seem to get far more attention than posts about the abject poverty of billions we share the planet with.  As soon as there's an article about abject poverty in NZ, expect snide comments about there being a Sky TV dish on the roof of the house or a KFC wrapper in the garbage.

 

 

 





Mike

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  Reply # 1568771 9-Jun-2016 15:54
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MikeAqua:

 

Put more simply.  I would rather donate more to charity than pay more tax.  I currently pay tax and donate to charity because its the only way to get stuff done.  Good charities are efficient and effective. 

 

Government has been inefficient and ineffective throughout my lifetime on social issues like violence and poverty.  If I pay government more tax they will simply waste more money on back office processes and nothing will change.

 

I see charitable donations as a free market solution to early intervention and surveillance in societal problems. 

 

Leave govt to be the enforcement.

 

Yes - charitable donations involve a group of people paying more than others - but then so does a graduated tax system ...

 

 

 

 

It needs the enforcing as well as the social work and that is why Government agencies are better as they can respond not just refer.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1568795 9-Jun-2016 16:04
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There are areas where govt has contracted out enforcement - Fish & Game and SPCA being examples.

 

But if you accept that government has to do the enforcement  that doesn't mean they have to (or should) do prevention and referral.

 

Government agencies are inefficient and ineffective at both prevention and referral. 

 

MikeB4:

 

It needs the enforcing as well as the social work and that is why Government agencies are better as they can respond not just refer.

 





Mike

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  Reply # 1568825 9-Jun-2016 17:00
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I think you'll find the vast majority of parents/caregivers do protect their kids. There is a small minority of parents/caregivers who don't. The reality is there is very little that can be done if the individual responsible for caring for a child is either incapable or chooses not to. The people who work in this area have a very difficult job.





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  Reply # 1569098 10-Jun-2016 06:47
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Dulouz:

 

I think you'll find the vast majority of parents/caregivers do protect their kids. There is a small minority of parents/caregivers who don't. The reality is there is very little that can be done if the individual responsible for caring for a child is either incapable or chooses not to. The people who work in this area have a very difficult job.

 

 

Government or charity how do you stop an angry/ evil person killing a child behind closed doors? We are quite often looking at the dregs of society here that simply don't adhere to the rules and have no care for the children in their care.

 

BTW I think we have moved on from the accidental shooting of a 2 year old and the thread have moved to the abuse of children.

 

Smacking or not smacking is also not what this thread is about, although it did become that way.

 

 

 

Does anyone have the answer of how do you stop someone who doesn't care about punitive measures or care about the child from hurting or killing that child behind closed doors? I do not have the answer to the preventative measure, the only option I can present is to make the punishment so bad that it hopefully deters offending.  


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  Reply # 1569105 10-Jun-2016 07:14
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dickytim:

 

Government or charity how do you stop an angry/ evil person killing a child behind closed doors? We are quite often looking at the dregs of society here that simply don't adhere to the rules and have no care for the children in their care.

 

 

You can't do much about "evil", but I think that's a very small fraction of the problem. If you figure out *why* they are angry, and deal with it, then the  issue will largely go away.

 

Labelling people as "the dregs of society" isn't helping.

 

If "the rules" are designed to keep you (and your children) in poverty, then adherence doesn't make sense.

 

 


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  Reply # 1569109 10-Jun-2016 07:22
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Imo very very few of these cases there was an actual intention to kill a child. That being the case, 'punishment' is unlikely to have any effect on child death rates.

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