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  Reply # 1569226 10-Jun-2016 10:34
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dickytim:

 

 

 

My opinion on the Treaty of Waitangi is it is creating a divide in NZ based on events that happened when the world was a much different place.

 

 

You need to look at other countries whose natives had been colonized by westerners. Those with no "treaty" to protect them become the unseen, unspoken, unheard, and left to rot while their John Smith rule and reap their land. Look at Aboriginals in Australia for example. Their society has left them to rot, after feeding them alcohol tobacco and drugs, not withstanding a period where they removed their children and committed unspeakable acts on them.

 

The Maori were clever. They made a Treaty. So that the Pakeha can be held accountable if they do a John Smith on them.

 

The rest I cannot elaborate. Why is there still a divide ... 

 

Anyway, So the Treaty is not causing this ...


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  Reply # 1569230 10-Jun-2016 10:40
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dickytim:

 

I don't want to turn this into a racist thread, but there is most definitely a racial thread to this

 

http://www.justice.govt.nz/policy/constitutional-law-and-human-rights/human-rights/international-human-rights-instruments/international-human-rights-instruments-1/convention-against-torture/united-nations-convention-against-torture-and-other-cruel-inhuman-or-degrding-treatment-or-punishment-new-zealand-periodic-report-6/article-2/5-violence-against-children

 

I firmly believe that if we leave race out of the solution we are never going to get to the bottom of the issue.

 

Please note: By no means am I saying all Maori are bad parents, nor would I even contemplate this.

 

The statistics are that there are more Maori abusers by percentage than other groups.

 

The statistic I was looking at was actually abuse related deaths by race.

 

My opinion on the Treaty of Waitangi is it is creating a divide in NZ based on events that happened when the world was a much different place.

 

 

 

 

I disagree.  The problem is that Maori are over-represented in lower income/wealth deciles.
I have no doubt that's the result of a century of entrenched racism, often still deeply ingrained in the white middle-class NZ psyche.  I see it every day. If not hostile and outright racism, then stereotyping based on preconceived "facts" based on lies.

 

There's nothing in pre-colonisation Maori culture to suggest that they treated children poorly, corporal punishment and beating kids was a European concept.  James Cook observed an unexpected reaction from Maori invited on board Endeavour - who wept at the sight of a crewman being punished by being lashed - a concept (corporal punishment) that was foreign and appalling to them.

 

Other stories about pre-European Maori (life was short and brutal yada yada) must be considered in context.  Life was just as often damned short, unjust, and brutal in Europe.

 

 


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  Reply # 1569231 10-Jun-2016 10:41
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dickytim:

 

I don't want to turn this into a racist thread, but there is most definitely a racial thread to this

 

http://www.justice.govt.nz/policy/constitutional-law-and-human-rights/human-rights/international-human-rights-instruments/international-human-rights-instruments-1/convention-against-torture/united-nations-convention-against-torture-and-other-cruel-inhuman-or-degrding-treatment-or-punishment-new-zealand-periodic-report-6/article-2/5-violence-against-children

 

I firmly believe that if we leave race out of the solution we are never going to get to the bottom of the issue.

 

Please note: By no means am I saying all Maori are bad parents, nor would I even contemplate this.

 

The statistics are that there are more Maori abusers by percentage than other groups.

 

The statistic I was looking at was actually abuse related deaths by race.

 

My opinion on the Treaty of Waitangi is it is creating a divide in NZ based on events that happened when the world was a much different place.

 

 

 

 

No one is going to deny that Maori are not over represented including Maori themselves   however if this is focused on people will dismiss and disassociate themselves from the problem and answers will never be found. It is across all sectors of society so broad solutions are needed.  Also the child safety record is not just an abuse issue, there is neglect and negligence. Like not seating infants in cars safely, driving impaired, speeding. Not watching children by water, unsafe homes (loaded firearms spring to mind) Ensuring suitable adult supervision, this list goes on and on and it all adds to New Zealands woeful record.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 1569398 10-Jun-2016 13:21
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joker97:

 

dickytim:

 

 

 

My opinion on the Treaty of Waitangi is it is creating a divide in NZ based on events that happened when the world was a much different place.

 

 

You need to look at other countries whose natives had been colonized by westerners. Those with no "treaty" to protect them become the unseen, unspoken, unheard, and left to rot while their John Smith rule and reap their land. Look at Aboriginals in Australia for example. Their society has left them to rot, after feeding them alcohol tobacco and drugs, not withstanding a period where they removed their children and committed unspeakable acts on them.

 

The Maori were clever. They made a Treaty. So that the Pakeha can be held accountable if they do a John Smith on them.

 

The rest I cannot elaborate. Why is there still a divide ... 

 

Anyway, So the Treaty is not causing this ...

 

 

 

 

I remain curious what happens to all the money....

 

 

 

There have been some hefty settlements (where people have benefitted by getting current value rather than the value at the time they lost whatever it was) and some (by no means all AFAICS) of these have been used to create good businesses.

 

What I do not see much evidence of is the fruits of all of that finding it's way into the pockets of "ordinary Maoris". For example, we read that they own less houses. Are they being helped into buying them with the benefit of the settlements? They need rented accommodation - is ToW money building that for their people?

 

(Perversely, they arguably did better not being compensated at the time of original sale. Imagine the actual value of a property was, say, 100 pounds and the tribe were paid 20 at the time which is why they get compensation now. However, had they been paid the 100 - or even 500 - at the time, does anyone believe that the Maori living today would be benefitting from that money? I'm pretty sure not - the people who got it way back would have used it all up at the time. )






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  Reply # 1569418 10-Jun-2016 13:47
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Geektastic:

joker97:


dickytim:


 


My opinion on the Treaty of Waitangi is it is creating a divide in NZ based on events that happened when the world was a much different place.



You need to look at other countries whose natives had been colonized by westerners. Those with no "treaty" to protect them become the unseen, unspoken, unheard, and left to rot while their John Smith rule and reap their land. Look at Aboriginals in Australia for example. Their society has left them to rot, after feeding them alcohol tobacco and drugs, not withstanding a period where they removed their children and committed unspeakable acts on them.


The Maori were clever. They made a Treaty. So that the Pakeha can be held accountable if they do a John Smith on them.


The rest I cannot elaborate. Why is there still a divide ... 


Anyway, So the Treaty is not causing this ...



 


I remain curious what happens to all the money....


 


There have been some hefty settlements (where people have benefitted by getting current value rather than the value at the time they lost whatever it was) and some (by no means all AFAICS) of these have been used to create good businesses.


What I do not see much evidence of is the fruits of all of that finding it's way into the pockets of "ordinary Maoris". For example, we read that they own less houses. Are they being helped into buying them with the benefit of the settlements? They need rented accommodation - is ToW money building that for their people?


(Perversely, they arguably did better not being compensated at the time of original sale. Imagine the actual value of a property was, say, 100 pounds and the tribe were paid 20 at the time which is why they get compensation now. However, had they been paid the 100 - or even 500 - at the time, does anyone believe that the Maori living today would be benefitting from that money? I'm pretty sure not - the people who got it way back would have used it all up at the time. )



With respect you need to do reading about the Treaty, what the Treaty claims and settlements are about.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 1569425 10-Jun-2016 14:01
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Geektastic:

 

joker97:

 

dickytim:

 

 

 

My opinion on the Treaty of Waitangi is it is creating a divide in NZ based on events that happened when the world was a much different place.

 

 

You need to look at other countries whose natives had been colonized by westerners. Those with no "treaty" to protect them become the unseen, unspoken, unheard, and left to rot while their John Smith rule and reap their land. Look at Aboriginals in Australia for example. Their society has left them to rot, after feeding them alcohol tobacco and drugs, not withstanding a period where they removed their children and committed unspeakable acts on them.

 

The Maori were clever. They made a Treaty. So that the Pakeha can be held accountable if they do a John Smith on them.

 

The rest I cannot elaborate. Why is there still a divide ... 

 

Anyway, So the Treaty is not causing this ...

 

 

 

 

I remain curious what happens to all the money....

 

 

 

There have been some hefty settlements (where people have benefitted by getting current value rather than the value at the time they lost whatever it was) and some (by no means all AFAICS) of these have been used to create good businesses.

 

What I do not see much evidence of is the fruits of all of that finding it's way into the pockets of "ordinary Maoris". For example, we read that they own less houses. Are they being helped into buying them with the benefit of the settlements? They need rented accommodation - is ToW money building that for their people?

 

(Perversely, they arguably did better not being compensated at the time of original sale. Imagine the actual value of a property was, say, 100 pounds and the tribe were paid 20 at the time which is why they get compensation now. However, had they been paid the 100 - or even 500 - at the time, does anyone believe that the Maori living today would be benefitting from that money? I'm pretty sure not - the people who got it way back would have used it all up at the time. )

 

 

 

 

I have a little to do with Ngai Tahu. There was obviously a lot of pressure from some to distribute settlement.  Per person, it wouldn't have amounted to a hell of a lot - and wouldn't have made much difference.  They (Ngai Tahu leaders) made the right decisions.  

 

If you're at that end of the wealth scale, then it might have meant buying a car etc.  That's not to say that it would have been "frittered away" or spent unwisely, if you need a car (almost an essential part of normal daily life) then it's going to cost, but in a few years it's lost value and gone. Not so with investment in property and industry - which can also provide jobs. 

 

IMO there's growing respect and pride, at least down here things seem to be improving.  I usually go to Waitangi Day celebrations with some Maori and Pakeha friends.  I've always found it a bit sad that there are relatively few of us Pakeha there - it's an important part of our cultural history too, yet most white folk I know have never been on a marae except perhaps as part of a school visit or tourism thing.


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  Reply # 1569448 10-Jun-2016 14:34
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The treaty claims are fair in my view. Probably Maori should get more if anything, but it is a bit like the sth african truth and reconciliation process..... it is impossible to adequately compensate for past wrongs so you just do what you can and move on. Right.

 

The real injustice is how the tribes distribute the cash to their members. The only money most maori will see from treaty settlements is from mopping the maori owned fish factory floors. 

 

But, what are you going to do to fix this? How do you teach aspiration? You can't really, it comes from peers / family / social groups. 

 

This is why a poor asian family with little english can move to NZ and easily outperform maori families in better economic situations.

 

I'm gonna say, there is no fix.  People will be arguing the same things in 200 years time. 

 

 


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  Reply # 1569463 10-Jun-2016 15:06
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Geektastic:

 

I remain curious what happens to all the money....

 

There have been some hefty settlements (where people have benefitted by getting current value rather than the value at the time they lost whatever it was) and some (by no means all AFAICS) of these have been used to create good businesses.

 

What I do not see much evidence of is the fruits of all of that finding it's way into the pockets of "ordinary Maoris". For example, we read that they own less houses. Are they being helped into buying them with the benefit of the settlements? They need rented accommodation - is ToW money building that for their people?

 

 

There were some startlingly bad investments made (e.g. Tainui buying the Warriors franchise).  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tainui

 

I suspect that a fair amount has gone into investments to enrich the Iwi, rather than paid out to members of the Iwi. Hopefully these will be paying dividends now. However, I suspect that it is frittered away in Iwi bureaucracy, providing no doubt hefty fees to "consultants" like Tuku Morgan.

 

Anyone know how the $3bn Ruakura inland port development is going?

 

The Tainui Iwi also famously turfed a number of their own members out of rental houses that the Iwi acquired near Huntly as part of some agreement with the Govt.

 

It's interesting that there's evidence from the USA that the best thing is to just give the money directly to the individuals. They will in fact use it wisely, and not spend it on alcohol and drugs.

 

 


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  Reply # 1569473 10-Jun-2016 15:17
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frankv:

Geektastic:


I remain curious what happens to all the money....


There have been some hefty settlements (where people have benefitted by getting current value rather than the value at the time they lost whatever it was) and some (by no means all AFAICS) of these have been used to create good businesses.


What I do not see much evidence of is the fruits of all of that finding it's way into the pockets of "ordinary Maoris". For example, we read that they own less houses. Are they being helped into buying them with the benefit of the settlements? They need rented accommodation - is ToW money building that for their people?



There were some startlingly bad investments made (e.g. Tainui buying the Warriors franchise).  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tainui


I suspect that a fair amount has gone into investments to enrich the Iwi, rather than paid out to members of the Iwi. Hopefully these will be paying dividends now. However, I suspect that it is frittered away in Iwi bureaucracy, providing no doubt hefty fees to "consultants" like Tuku Morgan.


Anyone know how the $3bn Ruakura inland port development is going?


The Tainui Iwi also famously turfed a number of their own members out of rental houses that the Iwi acquired near Huntly as part of some agreement with the Govt.


It's interesting that there's evidence from the USA that the best thing is to just give the money directly to the individuals. They will in fact use it wisely, and not spend it on alcohol and drugs.


 



I'd imagine that, as I suggested, providing housing would be a good use of the money. If you retained ownership and subsidised the rents, you'd keep the assets which would appreciate over time.





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  Reply # 1569487 10-Jun-2016 15:42
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Fred99:

 

Geektastic:

 

joker97:

 

dickytim:

 

 

 

My opinion on the Treaty of Waitangi is it is creating a divide in NZ based on events that happened when the world was a much different place.

 

 

You need to look at other countries whose natives had been colonized by westerners. Those with no "treaty" to protect them become the unseen, unspoken, unheard, and left to rot while their John Smith rule and reap their land. Look at Aboriginals in Australia for example. Their society has left them to rot, after feeding them alcohol tobacco and drugs, not withstanding a period where they removed their children and committed unspeakable acts on them.

 

The Maori were clever. They made a Treaty. So that the Pakeha can be held accountable if they do a John Smith on them.

 

The rest I cannot elaborate. Why is there still a divide ... 

 

Anyway, So the Treaty is not causing this ...

 

 

 

 

I remain curious what happens to all the money....

 

 

 

There have been some hefty settlements (where people have benefitted by getting current value rather than the value at the time they lost whatever it was) and some (by no means all AFAICS) of these have been used to create good businesses.

 

What I do not see much evidence of is the fruits of all of that finding it's way into the pockets of "ordinary Maoris". For example, we read that they own less houses. Are they being helped into buying them with the benefit of the settlements? They need rented accommodation - is ToW money building that for their people?

 

(Perversely, they arguably did better not being compensated at the time of original sale. Imagine the actual value of a property was, say, 100 pounds and the tribe were paid 20 at the time which is why they get compensation now. However, had they been paid the 100 - or even 500 - at the time, does anyone believe that the Maori living today would be benefitting from that money? I'm pretty sure not - the people who got it way back would have used it all up at the time. )

 

 

 

 

I have a little to do with Ngai Tahu. There was obviously a lot of pressure from some to distribute settlement.  Per person, it wouldn't have amounted to a hell of a lot - and wouldn't have made much difference.  They (Ngai Tahu leaders) made the right decisions.  

 

If you're at that end of the wealth scale, then it might have meant buying a car etc.  That's not to say that it would have been "frittered away" or spent unwisely, if you need a car (almost an essential part of normal daily life) then it's going to cost, but in a few years it's lost value and gone. Not so with investment in property and industry - which can also provide jobs. 

 

IMO there's growing respect and pride, at least down here things seem to be improving.  I usually go to Waitangi Day celebrations with some Maori and Pakeha friends.  I've always found it a bit sad that there are relatively few of us Pakeha there - it's an important part of our cultural history too, yet most white folk I know have never been on a marae except perhaps as part of a school visit or tourism thing.

 

 

Speaking recently to some of the next generation down, I think there is a push for the benefits to be spread across the wider iwi than has happened to date.  They are now getting involved at a higher level and we will hopefully see investment in projects to assist Maori off the worst of the statistics.  There is a lot of good work being done out there already that doesn't make it onto mainstream TV (have a look at the Maori TV news and you will hear about some of them) - more needs to be done and I think this is recognised.


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  Reply # 1569489 10-Jun-2016 15:54
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The use of treaty settlements has merits but nowhere near sufficient and only addresses one sector, again this problem is across all sectors of our society. 





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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