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  Reply # 1565657 4-Jun-2016 13:55
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nathan:
ajobbins:

 

shk292:

 

 

 

I think the cost of tertiary education should be an investment that students make in order to secure a return in the form of better earnings later.  So borrowing money to make this investment is perfectly reasonable.  If you don't back yourself to get a useful qualification, don't start the course

 

 

 

There is no such thing as "free".  It's just making someone else pay for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Society as a whole benefits from education, not just the individual.

 



When something is "free" you'll have bludger losers queuing up at Uni to do Bullshi@ degrees that are worthless in the real world.

 

 

 

It used to be free.

 

Not sure how you define a "bull****" degree.  Data I've seen on (from NZQA and/or MBIE) suggested to me that "common knowledge" on "bull**** degrees" may not be accurate WRT medium and long-term vocational outcomes.

 

OTOH, some might consider that there's an element of bull**** in what some consider to be worthwhile degrees because a self-fulfilling prophesy is in place.  Example MBA - where xx% of senior executives have an MBA, it becomes accepted that the reason that they're senior executives (and such great ones - by self assessment) is because of the unique qualities they have because of that learning, so they make appointments favouring candidates with MBAs,  around and around we go.


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  Reply # 1565668 4-Jun-2016 14:06
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Fred99:

 

<snip>

 

Not sure how you define a "bull****" degree. 

 

<snip>

 

 

Decades ago, when I was a student receiving a "free" University education, there was the phenomenon of "Matrimony 1".

 

This was the common name for any lightweight course taken by girls looking for a husband (marriage was still fashionable way back then).

 

The girls took the minimum number of subjects - usually in the "Arts" - and spent as much time as possible socializing.

 

A wonderful time was had by all  wink

 

 





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  Reply # 1565669 4-Jun-2016 14:14
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As always, there are different facets to any issue. Some societies may view the cost of higher education as a burden to be borne as grudgingly as possible, while others may see it as an investment in the future that more than makes up for the few individuals who abuse the system. It is all a matter of perspective.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1565672 4-Jun-2016 15:11
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geekiegeek:

Yeah, but in the 70s/80s, I think there was a bigger tax base as all of the baby boomers were working and not retiring as they are now. Now taxes have to cover a larger number of retired people and things like working for families, building additional infrastructure for a larger population etc.


Personally, I pay a large amount of tax, and as I'm part of a two income no kids family, I get no benefit (I pay for my healthcare as well). 


This is a profoundly inane comment. Do you drive to work on your own private road that you paid for? Did your parents pay 100% of the costs of your school education? If you are in a car crash on your private road will you be transported in your private healthcare provider's private ambulance to a private hospital for private emergency surgery? Do your retired relatives receive no pension benefits that you will be eligible for when you retire? Can you listen to Radio NZ if you want to? Do you have a private judiciary that ensures that the legislation passed by your private government operates correctly? Does anyone in your wider family have an under-5 child who gets pre-school education/healthcare? Are there any scientists who get funding that improve crops for export to improve the national economy as a whole that creates a condition that allows for a better than subsistence economy so you don't have to live in a cave? Are retailed electricity that is distributed on a private distribution network not funded by the wider taxpayer? Etc etc etc.




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  Reply # 1565696 4-Jun-2016 16:25
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Sideface:

 

Fred99:

 

<snip>

 

Not sure how you define a "bull****" degree. 

 

<snip>

 

 

Decades ago, when I was a student receiving a "free" University education, there was the phenomenon of "Matrimony 1".

 

This was the common name for any lightweight course taken by girls looking for a husband (marriage was still fashionable way back then).

 

The girls took the minimum number of subjects - usually in the "Arts" - and spent as much time as possible socializing.

 

A wonderful time was had by all  wink

 

 

 

 

Heh heh.

 

SWMBO earns 3x what I could, not a particularly unusual situation these days.

 

Private joke when asked "what do you do"  (question number one in social situations) I sometimes reply that I cook, entertain, and try to keep myself looking trim and presentable.  I only expect occasional treats and gifts of nice underwear and jewellery in return.


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  Reply # 1565732 4-Jun-2016 17:04
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This is a profoundly inane comment. Do you drive to work on your own private road that you paid for? Did your parents pay 100% of the costs of your school education? If you are in a car crash on your private road will you be transported in your private healthcare provider's private ambulance to a private hospital for private emergency surgery? Do your retired relatives receive no pension benefits that you will be eligible for when you retire? Can you listen to Radio NZ if you want to? Do you have a private judiciary that ensures that the legislation passed by your private government operates correctly? Does anyone in your wider family have an under-5 child who gets pre-school education/healthcare? Are there any scientists who get funding that improve crops for export to improve the national economy as a whole that creates a condition that allows for a better than subsistence economy so you don't have to live in a cave? Are retailed electricity that is distributed on a private distribution network not funded by the wider taxpayer? Etc etc etc.

 

 

 

There's no helping the profoundly ignorant, who simply chooses to turn their minds off thinking. I wouldn't bother engaging him on this point.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1565735 4-Jun-2016 17:20
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BlinkyBill:
geekiegeek:

 

Yeah, but in the 70s/80s, I think there was a bigger tax base as all of the baby boomers were working and not retiring as they are now. Now taxes have to cover a larger number of retired people and things like working for families, building additional infrastructure for a larger population etc.

 

 

 

Personally, I pay a large amount of tax, and as I'm part of a two income no kids family, I get no benefit (I pay for my healthcare as well). 

 


This is a profoundly inane comment. Do you drive to work on your own private road that you paid for? Did your parents pay 100% of the costs of your school education? If you are in a car crash on your private road will you be transported in your private healthcare provider's private ambulance to a private hospital for private emergency surgery? Do your retired relatives receive no pension benefits that you will be eligible for when you retire? Can you listen to Radio NZ if you want to? Do you have a private judiciary that ensures that the legislation passed by your private government operates correctly? Does anyone in your wider family have an under-5 child who gets pre-school education/healthcare? Are there any scientists who get funding that improve crops for export to improve the national economy as a whole that creates a condition that allows for a better than subsistence economy so you don't have to live in a cave? Are retailed electricity that is distributed on a private distribution network not funded by the wider taxpayer? Etc etc etc.

 

In all fairness to Geekiegeek, I think he is understandably getting a little confused judging by his comments I have highlighted above. The reality is there was a smaller base, but that base was paying substantially more tax as a percentage of earnings in the 70's and 80's than we are today.

 

I'm quite sure he is entitled to feel that he is currently paying a large amount of tax, but I can assure him that he is paying less as a percentage of earnings (GST - a consumption tax, to one side) than he would have been paying back then.

 

Healthcare? Again, if he is alluding to the fact that he is paying for private medical insurance and therefore believes that he pays for all of his healthcare costs, as is quite common - he is mistaken. He fails to recognise that he is still being subsidised, not only by the continuing Govt subsidies provided to private healthcare providers, but by additional subsidies by those other insured persons who are not claiming at that particular point in time. 

 

Until the Govt of the day has the balls to stand up and say "Vote for us and pay less tax, but don't expect to have it both ways", people will continue to feel hard done by and ripped off.

 

Now, Prov Tax is paid, my GST is paid and up to date, PAYE has been paid, my employee health insurances have been paid. Hopefully I might be able to pay myself a few grand this quarter. Bugger, I forgot. My PI Insurance is due this month.


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  Reply # 1565736 4-Jun-2016 17:24
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DaveB:

 

 

 

Healthcare? Again, if he is alluding to the fact that he is paying for private medical insurance and therefore believes that he pays for all of his healthcare costs, as is quite common - he is mistaken. He fails to recognise that he is still being subsidised, not only by the continuing Govt subsidies provided to private healthcare providers, but by additional subsidies by those other insured persons who are not claiming at that particular point in time.

 

Indeed. Health insurance (or any insurance for that matter) is pretty much such socialism but without the share of reward. With insurance the reward (profit) goes to the insurer, but the risk is shared by all. 





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  Reply # 1565738 4-Jun-2016 17:36
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Fred99:

 

OTOH, some might consider that there's an element of bull**** in what some consider to be worthwhile degrees because a self-fulfilling prophesy is in place.  Example MBA - where xx% of senior executives have an MBA, it becomes accepted that the reason that they're senior executives (and such great ones - by self assessment) is because of the unique qualities they have because of that learning, so they make appointments favouring candidates with MBAs,  around and around we go.

 

 

The main issue is that recruiters like easy to use criteria. An MBA is one of those.

 

I've worked with many senior executives who never mentioned their MBAs or required staff to have them. It just wasn't as relevant as success which tends to be the cachet in sports, academia and business.

 

 


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  Reply # 1565798 4-Jun-2016 20:09
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ajobbins:

 

DaveB:

 

 

 

Healthcare? Again, if he is alluding to the fact that he is paying for private medical insurance and therefore believes that he pays for all of his healthcare costs, as is quite common - he is mistaken. He fails to recognise that he is still being subsidised, not only by the continuing Govt subsidies provided to private healthcare providers, but by additional subsidies by those other insured persons who are not claiming at that particular point in time.

 

Indeed. Health insurance (or any insurance for that matter) is pretty much such socialism but without the share of reward. With insurance the reward (profit) goes to the insurer, but the risk is shared by all. 

 

 

My understanding of the health insurance market in NZ has demonstrated to me that the health insurers profit is quite narrow, across all companies. Surely any company that provides a service is entitled to a profit? The argument I guess would be how much is fair?

 

Like you and I we all go to work to make a profit and companies are no different.

 

You are indeed correct when you say the risk is shared by all. But does the same not apply to potential profit when premiums are reduced and discounts given when claims are lower than expected (as many insurers do)?

 

That to one side, this is not really a thread about insurance. I just happened to make a comment about somebody who believes that they (and they alone) pay for their private healthcare.


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  Reply # 1566416 6-Jun-2016 12:25
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Geese:
Bankruptcy wipes Student loans. How does this apply to overseas students? Do they have to be in NZ to declare bankruptcy? Or be resident so many days to be able to do it?

 

No. You can declare bankrupcty from outside NZ, and in fact some morally bankrupt "financial advisors" (especially Australian based ones) advise to do exactly this, because it means you can write off your student loan debt and get away with it scott-free, because the Official Assignee rarely exercises their ability to seize assets cross borders (using the Model Code for Cross Border Insolvency, a treaty that many countries are signatories to).


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  Reply # 1566459 6-Jun-2016 13:36
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DaveB:

 

You are indeed correct when you say the risk is shared by all. But does the same not apply to potential profit when premiums are reduced and discounts given when claims are lower than expected (as many insurers do)?

 

I've never had an insurance premium go down and haven't heard of commercial insurance companies decreasing premiums or increasing discounts in response to lower claims.





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  Reply # 1566543 6-Jun-2016 14:57
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ajobbins:

 

DaveB:

 

You are indeed correct when you say the risk is shared by all. But does the same not apply to potential profit when premiums are reduced and discounts given when claims are lower than expected (as many insurers do)?

 

I've never had an insurance premium go down and haven't heard of commercial insurance companies decreasing premiums or increasing discounts in response to lower claims.

 

 

I have. My health insurance premiums went down by 10% a few years ago for the 2 adults on my policy because our claims were below a certain threshold. I also had a decrease to my PI Insurance at a time they were rising because of a change to our risk profile due to additional compliance requirements that we voluntarily introduced. My ACC requirements have also been eased. Many older drivers pay less based on their risk profile as well.

 

But as said above, may be a different topic?


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  Reply # 1566729 6-Jun-2016 19:56
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Fred99:

 

 

 

It used to be free.

 

Not sure how you define a "bull****" degree.  Data I've seen on (from NZQA and/or MBIE) suggested to me that "common knowledge" on "bull**** degrees" may not be accurate WRT medium and long-term vocational outcomes.

 

OTOH, some might consider that there's an element of bull**** in what some consider to be worthwhile degrees because a self-fulfilling prophesy is in place.  Example MBA - where xx% of senior executives have an MBA, it becomes accepted that the reason that they're senior executives (and such great ones - by self assessment) is because of the unique qualities they have because of that learning, so they make appointments favouring candidates with MBAs,  around and around we go.

 

 

In that case, there is no problem with the current system of part taxpayer funded, part student loan funded degrees.  If a student backs herself to do a social sciences degree, knowing that the money invested will result in a better medium to long term vocational outcome, then the loan can easily be repaid in due course.  It seems we are violently agreeing that loans are a good idea


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  Reply # 1567065 7-Jun-2016 12:57
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Regardless of the arguments for and against free tertiary education vs student loans, the fact remains that the individual in question took out a loan and then CHOSE not to pay it back.

 

"I never blinked an eye or even thought about my loan,". Maybe she should have... she gets no sympathy from me. 


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