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Kyanar
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  #1577085 20-Jun-2016 13:09
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DaveB:

 

You are more than likely correct. And therein lies my issue.

 

Nowadays, does it take many years  for an employer to find the lamest of (irrelevant) excuses to fire somebody should their ability to perform their duties decline , or are employee rights so entrenched that they can be considered a bad employee and get away with it for an extended period of time? 

 

And worse of all, regardless of the country involved - How can a council justify the legals costs involved of bringing this issue to the courts, especialy if they had lost, let alone the taxpayer costs of providing that court of hearing?

 

A person either performs their duties or they do not. To blame it on a cold left over sausage(s) is the most pathetic excuse I have seen.

 

A pc world gone mad again.

 

 

In Australia, it absolutely does. It's nearly impossible to fire someone in the private sector, let alone the public sector due to over-powerful unions, ridiculously employee-centric employment law, and general apathy. We're talking about a country where even the minimum wage is different per industry, and negotiated between the unions and the government - with the only option to opt out of the agreement (so-called "award") being to offer a contract with better terms overall than it. And on top of this, individual employment agreements are outright illegal - all contracts are collectively negotiated!

 

Being incompetent in Australia doesn't even come close to a firing offense, you actually have to find something that you can claim is either outright illegal or gross misconduct to terminate.


Batman
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  #1577086 20-Jun-2016 13:16
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networkn:

 

Well, bottom line is, it's theft by the definition of the law. You might not like it, but on the other side, I don't think the rigmarole required to dismiss a staff member for underperforming is fair or reasonable either.

 

Before any of you start ranting about how I want to sack my staff with no notice and exploit them blah blah, don't bother. I am not stating that. No business person with a brain fires performing staff. It's bloody hard work training staff and when you find good staff, you hold on to them. I think some sort of middle ground needs to be found.

 

 

Surely it's not theft if I was the cleaner and my explicit job was to clean up and throw away the sausages and salad.

 

I'm not sure it's theft if it was meant to be left out on the table for the evening shift to eat. Probably could be theft. [I don't think it would be there to be left overnight because in Australia, packing up food for customers to take away half eaten food is legally negligent, because if you get food poisoning the packer ie council/company would be liable. Hence it wouldn't have been packed up for another time I would think]

 

It would be theft if - what other scenarios are there? Anyone?

 

Ok I thought of one - maybe she took them while the function was ongoing ... that would be technically theft ... but maybe s/he/her family is homeless





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


 
 
 
 


frankv
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  #1577134 20-Jun-2016 14:32
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joker97:

 

It would be theft if - what other scenarios are there? Anyone?

 

Ok I thought of one - maybe she took them while the function was ongoing ... that would be technically theft ... but maybe s/he/her family is homeless

 

 

It would be theft if she took them without permission, no matter what the council intended to do with them.

 

From the article

 

 

Ms Merrin claimed she took the gourmet chicken and beef sausages home after a Christmas party for conservation volunteers because she was told they were going to be thrown out.

 

She also took home two bowls of salad but left a third bowl of lentil salad in the fridge.

 

The council claimed the sausages were actually going to be used for a team barbecue and fired Ms Merrin for taking council property for personal use.

 

 

As others have said, I'm sure there's more here than what was reported. In normal/reasonable circumstances, a misunderstanding would be rectified with an apology and replacement. Someone is being hard-nosed for some undisclosed reason. Given that you would explain why if you had a good reason, we can assume there must be a bad reason.

 

 


MikeAqua
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  #1577137 20-Jun-2016 14:38
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It is very hard to get rid of an under/non-performing employee in NZ.  You need to have reasonable cause on the balance of evidence and you have to have a blemish-less process (slow). 

 

Even if you do everything by the book and someone takes a PG you will spend $10k defending it ... or settle for some smaller amount.  Ironically if a union is involved you will fight harder as an employer because you can't afford to be seen as a soft precedent. 

 

Of course there are bad employers too.

 

One of the things I like about being an employee - if I dislike my workplace/boss/colleagues it's easy to leave.  I realise others have fewer choices. 





Mike


networkn
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  #1577150 20-Jun-2016 14:49
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frankv:

 

joker97:

 

It would be theft if - what other scenarios are there? Anyone?

 

Ok I thought of one - maybe she took them while the function was ongoing ... that would be technically theft ... but maybe s/he/her family is homeless

 

 

It would be theft if she took them without permission, no matter what the council intended to do with them.

 

From the article

 

 

Ms Merrin claimed she took the gourmet chicken and beef sausages home after a Christmas party for conservation volunteers because she was told they were going to be thrown out.

 

She also took home two bowls of salad but left a third bowl of lentil salad in the fridge.

 

The council claimed the sausages were actually going to be used for a team barbecue and fired Ms Merrin for taking council property for personal use.

 

 

As others have said, I'm sure there's more here than what was reported. In normal/reasonable circumstances, a misunderstanding would be rectified with an apology and replacement. Someone is being hard-nosed for some undisclosed reason. Given that you would explain why if you had a good reason, we can assume there must be a bad reason.

 

 

 

 

 

 

All could have been avoided if she had SIMPLY ASKED BEFORE TAKING. It's a pretty common courtesy to extend. 

 

Also, just because someone doesn't comment on a matter, doesn't make their side automatically bad. In most cases, it's a lot easier not to stick your foot in your mouth than it is to remove it once it's there. The more that is said, the more that can be attacked, good or bad.

 

Even if the company intended to throw the food out, it wasn't hers to take, no matter how good her internal reasoning, or intentions were.


Geektastic
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  #1577169 20-Jun-2016 15:05
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Kyanar:

 

DaveB:

 

You are more than likely correct. And therein lies my issue.

 

Nowadays, does it take many years  for an employer to find the lamest of (irrelevant) excuses to fire somebody should their ability to perform their duties decline , or are employee rights so entrenched that they can be considered a bad employee and get away with it for an extended period of time? 

 

And worse of all, regardless of the country involved - How can a council justify the legals costs involved of bringing this issue to the courts, especialy if they had lost, let alone the taxpayer costs of providing that court of hearing?

 

A person either performs their duties or they do not. To blame it on a cold left over sausage(s) is the most pathetic excuse I have seen.

 

A pc world gone mad again.

 

 

In Australia, it absolutely does. It's nearly impossible to fire someone in the private sector, let alone the public sector due to over-powerful unions, ridiculously employee-centric employment law, and general apathy. We're talking about a country where even the minimum wage is different per industry, and negotiated between the unions and the government - with the only option to opt out of the agreement (so-called "award") being to offer a contract with better terms overall than it. And on top of this, individual employment agreements are outright illegal - all contracts are collectively negotiated!

 

Being incompetent in Australia doesn't even come close to a firing offense, you actually have to find something that you can claim is either outright illegal or gross misconduct to terminate.

 

 

How do you collectively negotiate contracts for lawyers, accountants and so on?!






Geektastic
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  #1577171 20-Jun-2016 15:08
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MikeB4:
Geektastic:

 

joker97:

 

 

 

You don't know Australia. It's like America. Letters of the law, technicalities, and lawyers rule the land. I told my cousin (a barrister) about my house relocation and how I thought about hiring students from the SJS ... he almost tried to slap and choke me - because, as he explained, if he invited me to his house and I tripped on his lawn, he is liable for millions of dollars. Let alone hiring some kids to carry stuff around!

 

 

 

Anyway, there is no common sense in Australia. Only lawyers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And yet I read somewhere that NZ has more lawyers as a percentage of the population than almost anywhere else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a country in which you cannot sue for incompetence, I was left wondering what they do all day!

 



Our percentage is not that different to other comparable counties

1. U.S. 1 lawyer for every 300 people
2. Brazil: 1 lawyer for every 326 people
3. New Zealand: 1 lawyer for every 391 people
4. Spain: 1 lawyer for every 395 people
5. UK: 1 lawyer for every 401 people
6. Italy: 1 lawyer for every 488 people
7. Germany: 1 lawyer for every 593 people
8. France: 1 lawyer for every 1,403 people

 

 

 

Yes but we can't sue people. All 7 other countries on that list can. We have an economy considerably smaller than most of those too I would say, with commensurately less large businesses and so forth requiring lawyers for take overs, regulatory work and so on too.

 

What do ours do all day, in that case?






 
 
 
 


frankv
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  #1577174 20-Jun-2016 15:11
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networkn:

 

All could have been avoided if she had SIMPLY ASKED BEFORE TAKING. It's a pretty common courtesy to extend. 

 

 

Agreed.

 

Maybe she was under the impression that she *had* asked? After all, somehow she'd got the idea that they were going to be thrown out. I can imagine a scenario where she's asked the wrong person, who's said (incorrectly) "You might as well take them... they're going to be thrown out", or something similar that she misunderstood to be that. Which *could* have been settled amicably, but wasn't.

 

I can equally imagine a scenario where the boss has finally cottoned on to her deliberately over-ordering the food for the volunteers' BBQ every year and nabbed her.

 

 

Also, just because someone doesn't comment on a matter, doesn't make their side automatically bad. In most cases, it's a lot easier not to stick your foot in your mouth than it is to remove it once it's there. The more that is said, the more that can be attacked, good or bad.

 

 

I didn't say that either side was bad. Just that there's something bad that hasn't been said.

 

 

Even if the company intended to throw the food out, it wasn't hers to take, no matter how good her internal reasoning, or intentions were.

 

 

Yes.

 

 


networkn
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  #1577177 20-Jun-2016 15:13
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Geektastic:

 


Yes but we can't sue people. All 7 other countries on that list can. We have an economy considerably smaller than most of those too I would say, with commensurately less large businesses and so forth requiring lawyers for take overs, regulatory work and so on too.

 

What do ours do all day, in that case?

 

 

 

 

Conveyencing!

 

 

 

(Also see how I didn't quote the entire 50 pages of text you previously did, just the stuff that was on context :))

 

 


networkn
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  #1577179 20-Jun-2016 15:16
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frankv:

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

Maybe she was under the impression that she *had* asked? After all, somehow she'd got the idea that they were going to be thrown out. I can imagine a scenario where she's asked the wrong person, who's said (incorrectly) "You might as well take them... they're going to be thrown out", or something similar that she misunderstood to be that. Which *could* have been settled amicably, but wasn't.

 

I can equally imagine a scenario where the boss has finally cottoned on to her deliberately over-ordering the food for the volunteers' BBQ every year and nabbed her.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah like you say, lots of potential on both sides for this to be perfectly acceptable or bad faith on the employers side.  

 

If she had asked, she would have been able to use that as a defense, so potentially even if she asked "What's happening with this food?" that isn't the same question as "If this food is being thrown out, do you mind if I take it, for volunteers I work with elsewhere".

 

Some of my extended family work in Hospo. All food after events is binned, and they have specific policies around staff not being allowed to take home left overs, because it does away with the whole ordering more food intentionally, and also if that food is bad, the person who eventually 

 

eats it ends up with potential recourse against the company "who provided it". It's the same reason that if at KFC a staff member gets your order wrong, you aren't allowed to keep the old food order if they replace it, because it's too easy to defraud.

 

 

 

 


MikeB4
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  #1577180 20-Jun-2016 15:17
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Geektastic:

 

MikeB4:
Geektastic:

 

joker97:

 

 

 

You don't know Australia. It's like America. Letters of the law, technicalities, and lawyers rule the land. I told my cousin (a barrister) about my house relocation and how I thought about hiring students from the SJS ... he almost tried to slap and choke me - because, as he explained, if he invited me to his house and I tripped on his lawn, he is liable for millions of dollars. Let alone hiring some kids to carry stuff around!

 

 

 

Anyway, there is no common sense in Australia. Only lawyers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And yet I read somewhere that NZ has more lawyers as a percentage of the population than almost anywhere else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a country in which you cannot sue for incompetence, I was left wondering what they do all day!

 



Our percentage is not that different to other comparable counties

1. U.S. 1 lawyer for every 300 people
2. Brazil: 1 lawyer for every 326 people
3. New Zealand: 1 lawyer for every 391 people
4. Spain: 1 lawyer for every 395 people
5. UK: 1 lawyer for every 401 people
6. Italy: 1 lawyer for every 488 people
7. Germany: 1 lawyer for every 593 people
8. France: 1 lawyer for every 1,403 people

 

 

 

Yes but we can't sue people. All 7 other countries on that list can. We have an economy considerably smaller than most of those too I would say, with commensurately less large businesses and so forth requiring lawyers for take overs, regulatory work and so on too.

 

What do ours do all day, in that case?

 

 

 

 

lawyers do more than just sue people


dejadeadnz
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  #1577193 20-Jun-2016 15:28
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Geektastic:

 

 

 

Yes but we can't sue people. All 7 other countries on that list can. We have an economy considerably smaller than most of those too I would say, with commensurately less large businesses and so forth requiring lawyers for take overs, regulatory work and so on too.

 

What do ours do all day, in that case?

 

 

 

 

Only personal injury lawsuits are barred, so your statement is incorrect. And lawyers do a lot more than suing people and it's not only large businesses that require legal work.

 

 

 

 


KrazyKid
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  #1577210 20-Jun-2016 15:43
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And then there was the recent article about the cleaner who got his job back after "stealing" a cup off coffee...

 

 


Kyanar
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  #1577216 20-Jun-2016 15:54
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Geektastic:

 

How do you collectively negotiate contracts for lawyers, accountants and so on?!

 

 

Lawyers and accountants are rarely employees, they're usually partners. But even regular legal employees are covered by awards such as the Legal Services Award for lawyers. Accountants, curiously, don't have an award (they usually act as beneficiaries of a trust with a corporate trustee, really - they're accountants. They know how to structure!)


MikeB4
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  #1577231 20-Jun-2016 16:05
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Kyanar:

 

Geektastic:

 

How do you collectively negotiate contracts for lawyers, accountants and so on?!

 

 

Lawyers and accountants are rarely employees, they're usually partners. But even regular legal employees are covered by awards such as the Legal Services Award for lawyers. Accountants, curiously, don't have an award (they usually act as beneficiaries of a trust with a corporate trustee, really - they're accountants. They know how to structure!)

 

 

 

 

A lot of lawyers (probably the majority) and accountants are staff. My last employer had at least 20 staff lawyers and countless accountants. 


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