Interesting video about Brexit

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#1579795 24-Jun-2016 19:48

MikeB4:

He had said well before the vote that he would do what the people voted for, if after the vote he said well I don't agree with you and you are not playing my game so I wont honour my previous statements then that would have been disgraceful. The two scenarios were known before the vote and the people have said this is what want.

Perhaps I didn't make myself quite as clear as I could have. During the past few days I heard him say he would only proceed if there was a reasonable majority. I would expect "reasonable" to be at least 10% but really, 20%.

I believe that perhaps 5% of the population (and I am being MASSIVELY generous here in an effort not to insult people) understand what is about to happen, and what the real pros and cons are.

He is the elected leader and whilst he has a responsibility to listen to the people, he is required to make RESPONSIBLE choices. Responsible is not blindly following the mass populaces will without due consideration.

As it is, he has done the next best thing and said "I disagree so strongly with this decision, with my greater knowledge of the negative impact of this, that I can't in good conscience, lead the country into this dismal mess".

I think option 1 would have been better than option 2.

eracode

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#1579796 24-Jun-2016 19:49

networkn:

I get that. Its like who voted with old loyalty based on nothing, what parents think, or I want out of the EU, or who voted with their brains. BUT, when we vote n NZ every 3 years, its binding. So why not?

I think perhaps you have misunderstood my point. My point is that Cameron should not have quit (Though he obviously doesn't want any part of this exit and it shows his conviction, which is good), he should have stood and said

"The majority wasn't enough to put the entire country and indeed world, through the unheavel". If you want this, you need a binding vote, and that can be at the next election. If our party if voted out, and the new party opts to exit the EU, then the real

will of the people will have been heard.

Elections are binding, and so that would give you the true measure of it. If people are prepared to vote out the party they previously favoured, to exit the EU and believe the party offering if can deliver that in a way that benefits the UK, then they will be out. I believe however, that would put a nail in the exit because I don't believe that the opposition can deliver this in a way that doesn't cause massive problems.

His biggest mistake was to hold the referendum and his second big mistake was to not put a hurdle-rate on it for it to be binding. Unfortunately it's come back to bite him on the bum - so he's now got to live (i.e fall) with that. He's done the right and proper thing by accepting the result and resigning - albeit not immediately.

Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.

tdgeek

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#1579799 24-Jun-2016 19:52

networkn:

I get that. Its like who voted with old loyalty based on nothing, what parents think, or I want out of the EU, or who voted with their brains. BUT, when we vote n NZ every 3 years, its binding. So why not?

I think perhaps you have misunderstood my point. My point is that Cameron should not have quit (Though he obviously doesn't want any part of this exit and it shows his conviction, which is good), he should have stood and said

"The majority wasn't enough to put the entire country and indeed world, through the unheavel". If you want this, you need a binding vote, and that can be at the next election. If our party if voted out, and the new party opts to exit the EU, then the real

will of the people will have been heard.

Elections are binding, and so that would give you the true measure of it. If people are prepared to vote out the party they previously favoured, to exit the EU and believe the party offering if can deliver that in a way that benefits the UK, then they will be out. I believe however, that would put a nail in the exit because I don't believe that the opposition can deliver this in a way that doesn't cause massive problems.

This is quite a big deal. If the will was to leave, or stay, and the PM said ok, but not doing that, that causes another issue. UK people are very capable of rising this to unheard of levels, IMHO. The stable door has opened, its probably better to let the horse trot away, than gallop away. But I fully see your point. But its not a NZ flag type of debate, wish it was. What next for other countries??? Who knows

Linuxluver

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#1579800 24-Jun-2016 19:52

tdgeek:

I feel the bottom line is that this is democracy. It exists in an election. An election can be won by one vote. If we decreed that an election can be won by one vote, BUT if we arent happy with that, whats that? Its not democracy. Its really up to either side to put forward the best and proper arguments, so that the public, who arent generally qualified, to make a decision. So be it. If its a clear fail, then its a fail for then proponents of the losing side. Tough.

One of the reasons Americans distrust democracy is exactly that: a 50.00001% "majority" can blight the lives of everyone else.

This is one of the main reasons the Green Parties, for example, world-wide generally require consensus decisions. They just don't do things by simple majority. That is a road down which lies a good deal of conflict. Taking the time to have a debate and reach general agreement is well worth it in the long run.

The Conservatives were very foolish putting up this referendum at all. But then.....that sort of goes with who they are.

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#1579802 24-Jun-2016 19:56

networkn:

I get that. Its like who voted with old loyalty based on nothing, what parents think, or I want out of the EU, or who voted with their brains. BUT, when we vote n NZ every 3 years, its binding. So why not?

I think perhaps you have misunderstood my point. My point is that Cameron should not have quit (Though he obviously doesn't want any part of this exit and it shows his conviction, which is good), he should have stood and said

"The majority wasn't enough to put the entire country and indeed world, through the unheavel". If you want this, you need a binding vote, and that can be at the next election. If our party if voted out, and the new party opts to exit the EU, then the real

will of the people will have been heard.

Elections are binding, and so that would give you the true measure of it. If people are prepared to vote out the party they previously favoured, to exit the EU and believe the party offering if can deliver that in a way that benefits the UK, then they will be out. I believe however, that would put a nail in the exit because I don't believe that the opposition can deliver this in a way that doesn't cause massive problems.

One of the major points that Cameron was elected on last time was that he would hold a referendum on EU membership. The Tories were voted in with an overall majority, he's held the referendum and the majority decision was to leave.

In the lead up to the referendum everyone knew it was morally binding on Cameron to respect the result and he reinforced this view with everything he said while campaigning.

tdgeek

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#1579804 24-Jun-2016 20:09

eracode:

MikeB4:

networkn:

MikeB4:

David Cameron has announced the decision will be honoured as it should be.

Ugh, I feel he has failed as the leader of the UK (he has not shown leadership). I know you won't see it as that.

On the contrary he has shown honourable leadership. He is following the will of the country and will work to bring this about for the best outcome possible. That is leadership.

If you want a democracy you must follow the will of the people, if you don't then have a different form of government. The Beehive could take some lessons from this.

Agree with all of this. Only problem is that he has not stepped aside immediately which prolongs some of the uncertainty that markets dislike. Thought his concession speech was quite statesmanlike under the circs.

(If anyone wants to follow this on radio, as I am, I can recommend a London-based newstalk station, LBC, streams on the 'net. Excellent IMO).

Cant really do that. Here, the losing Govt honours supply (paying bills, day to day stuff) so there is no disruption. Cameron resigned, he will work with his replacement to ensure as much non disruption as possible.

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#1579807 24-Jun-2016 20:15

https://twitter.com/LondonEconomic/status/746247581748068352

The London Economic ‏@LondonEconomic
The UK is no longer the world's 5th largest economy. The £ has fallen so far that France has overtaken us. #EUref

#include <standard.disclaimer>

eracode

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#1579809 24-Jun-2016 20:18

tdgeek:

eracode:

MikeB4:

networkn:

MikeB4:

David Cameron has announced the decision will be honoured as it should be.

Ugh, I feel he has failed as the leader of the UK (he has not shown leadership). I know you won't see it as that.

On the contrary he has shown honourable leadership. He is following the will of the country and will work to bring this about for the best outcome possible. That is leadership.

If you want a democracy you must follow the will of the people, if you don't then have a different form of government. The Beehive could take some lessons from this.

Agree with all of this. Only problem is that he has not stepped aside immediately which prolongs some of the uncertainty that markets dislike. Thought his concession speech was quite statesmanlike under the circs.

(If anyone wants to follow this on radio, as I am, I can recommend a London-based newstalk station, LBC, streams on the 'net. Excellent IMO).

Cant really do that. Here, the losing Govt honours supply (paying bills, day to day stuff) so there is no disruption. Cameron resigned, he will work with his replacement to ensure as much non disruption as possible.

Ah - OK. But aren't you talking about a change of government versus a change of leader. I would have thought Cameron could have stood down immediately if he'd wanted to?

Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.

MikeB4

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#1579810 24-Jun-2016 20:22

alexx:

https://twitter.com/LondonEconomic/status/746247581748068352

The London Economic ‏@LondonEconomic
The UK is no longer the world's 5th largest economy. The £ has fallen so far that France has overtaken us. #EUref

A drop in the Pound is not necessarily a bad thing. A lower currency means their exporters will be more competitive and earn more.

New Zealand is better off with a lower dollar.

tdgeek

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#1579811 24-Jun-2016 20:27

eracode:

tdgeek:

eracode:

MikeB4:

networkn:

MikeB4:

David Cameron has announced the decision will be honoured as it should be.

Ugh, I feel he has failed as the leader of the UK (he has not shown leadership). I know you won't see it as that.

On the contrary he has shown honourable leadership. He is following the will of the country and will work to bring this about for the best outcome possible. That is leadership.

If you want a democracy you must follow the will of the people, if you don't then have a different form of government. The Beehive could take some lessons from this.

Agree with all of this. Only problem is that he has not stepped aside immediately which prolongs some of the uncertainty that markets dislike. Thought his concession speech was quite statesmanlike under the circs.

(If anyone wants to follow this on radio, as I am, I can recommend a London-based newstalk station, LBC, streams on the 'net. Excellent IMO).

Cant really do that. Here, the losing Govt honours supply (paying bills, day to day stuff) so there is no disruption. Cameron resigned, he will work with his replacement to ensure as much non disruption as possible.

Ah - OK. But aren't you talking about a change of government versus a change of leader. I would have thought Cameron could have stood down immediately if he'd wanted to?

Ah true, my mistake. If thats the case, just the leader then they could grab another with sort notice, but OTOH it makes for a smoother transition to not rush it, as Cameron will surely get in the way. The UK is now a bit delicate, so if he can stay a while, cooperate, thats probably a good thing

tdgeek

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#1579812 24-Jun-2016 20:30

Aside from today, where to from here? I gather the strength of the EU is that its a FTA region. So will the UK now have tariffs imposed in due course? I read an article today that NZ's heady years in the 70's were helped by UK trade. Might that happen?

eracode

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#1579813 24-Jun-2016 20:35

tdgeek:

eracode:

tdgeek:

eracode:

MikeB4:

networkn:

MikeB4:

David Cameron has announced the decision will be honoured as it should be.

Ugh, I feel he has failed as the leader of the UK (he has not shown leadership). I know you won't see it as that.

On the contrary he has shown honourable leadership. He is following the will of the country and will work to bring this about for the best outcome possible. That is leadership.

If you want a democracy you must follow the will of the people, if you don't then have a different form of government. The Beehive could take some lessons from this.

Agree with all of this. Only problem is that he has not stepped aside immediately which prolongs some of the uncertainty that markets dislike. Thought his concession speech was quite statesmanlike under the circs.

(If anyone wants to follow this on radio, as I am, I can recommend a London-based newstalk station, LBC, streams on the 'net. Excellent IMO).

Cant really do that. Here, the losing Govt honours supply (paying bills, day to day stuff) so there is no disruption. Cameron resigned, he will work with his replacement to ensure as much non disruption as possible.

Ah - OK. But aren't you talking about a change of government versus a change of leader. I would have thought Cameron could have stood down immediately if he'd wanted to?

Ah true, my mistake. If thats the case, just the leader then they could grab another with sort notice, but OTOH it makes for a smoother transition to not rush it, as Cameron will surely get in the way. The UK is now a bit delicate, so if he can stay a while, cooperate, thats probably a good thing

True that, too. The Governor of the BoE has just given a very statesmanlike speech an d that has immediately stabilised the markets somewhat - more particularly the equities markets which have rebounded off their opening lows.

Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.

shk292

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#1579814 24-Jun-2016 20:36

tdgeek:

Aside from today, where to from here? I gather the strength of the EU is that its a FTA region. So will the UK now have tariffs imposed in due course? I read an article today that NZ's heady years in the 70's were helped by UK trade. Might that happen?

Ever heard of the WTO? I think the days of punitive trade tariffs are long gone, regardless of their status as damn good scare tactics

alexx

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#1579815 24-Jun-2016 20:37

MikeB4:

alexx:

https://twitter.com/LondonEconomic/status/746247581748068352

The London Economic ‏@LondonEconomic
The UK is no longer the world's 5th largest economy. The £ has fallen so far that France has overtaken us. #EUref

A drop in the Pound is not necessarily a bad thing. A lower currency means their exporters will be more competitive and earn more.

New Zealand is better off with a lower dollar.

Some advantages and disadvantages. Time to start checking for bargains on Amazon UK and other UK based on-line retailers before they wake up and realise they need to change all their prices.

#include <standard.disclaimer>

shk292

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#1579816 24-Jun-2016 20:39

networkn:

MikeB4:

He had said well before the vote that he would do what the people voted for, if after the vote he said well I don't agree with you and you are not playing my game so I wont honour my previous statements then that would have been disgraceful. The two scenarios were known before the vote and the people have said this is what want.

Perhaps I didn't make myself quite as clear as I could have. During the past few days I heard him say he would only proceed if there was a reasonable majority. I would expect "reasonable" to be at least 10% but really, 20%.

I believe that perhaps 5% of the population (and I am being MASSIVELY generous here in an effort not to insult people) understand what is about to happen, and what the real pros and cons are.

He is the elected leader and whilst he has a responsibility to listen to the people, he is required to make RESPONSIBLE choices. Responsible is not blindly following the mass populaces will without due consideration.

As it is, he has done the next best thing and said "I disagree so strongly with this decision, with my greater knowledge of the negative impact of this, that I can't in good conscience, lead the country into this dismal mess".

I think option 1 would have been better than option 2.

Wow, just wow. So only <5% of the populace (in which I assume you include yourself) are intelligent enough to vote sensibly on this?

Fortunately, UK politicians for all their faults have a modicum of honour and integrity and will respect the democratic will of the people, even if most of them are so thick they shouldn't be allowed to vote

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