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tdgeek
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  #1580060 25-Jun-2016 11:44
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Rikkitic:

 

dejadeadnz:

 

 

 

On a pure political, systemic level, that view is fine. But don't blinker yourself to the obvious truth that results like this and the rise of imbeciles of people like Trump (and who their support base are) reveal. The stupid, uneducated and older crowd as an electorate (not every single one of these people are nasty, obviously) have a tendency to be nasty, reactionary, minority-hating, illiberal, and unwilling to see past their own noses. In terms of resources especially, their motto appears to be to steal as much as they can from the young and just leave them to deal with the social, environmental and economic costs in the future. You can interpret the Brexit result as simply majoritarianism in action but I think it can be quite plausibly argued that this is just yet another manifestation of the nasty and abhorrent personal ethics of a lot of this electorate.

 

 

Jeez, don't hold back on the sweeping generalisations.

 

 

 

 

We agree yet again!  :-)


SJB

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  #1580061 25-Jun-2016 11:51
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There was a very balanced report from a Kiwi living in London on The Nation this morning. Unfortunately the programme was then spoiled by an interview with Alistair Campbell, Blair's old press secretary.

 

That guy should still be in prison.


 
 
 
 


gzt

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  #1580062 25-Jun-2016 11:54
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Interesting short read. UK newspaper looks at the turnout effects.

Tldr; older turned out better, heavy rain in some pro areas, low turnout in Scotland.


gzt

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  #1580068 25-Jun-2016 12:07
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The graphs earlier were very interesting. There is yet another way of looking at the result.

It is a proportional result.

UK might be the only major European country without some form of proportional representation in national elections. In FPP systems many voters are resigned to no representation at all. There is a lot of pointless protest voting and a lot of people who never bother.

In contrast a referendum result is exactly proportional.

Maybe UK governments based on proportional representation would have steered a more careful course into the EU instead of the issue they now have where the major and majority parties seem to have failed to take the population with them.

Geektastic

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  #1580071 25-Jun-2016 12:13
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networkn:

 

shk292:

 

 

 

Exactly

 

The right thing to do is not always the financially expedient thing to do

 

 

Right, I get that, but it's not just Britan they are impacting. There is a chance of a global recession. I believe people should consider the global impact. Right or wrongly, Britan plays a major part in the way the world's finances are glued together.

 

 

 

 

I can't agree that British voters (or, indeed, voters in the US or anywhere else) should be made to consider the impact of their decisions on other places. That way, madness lies. How far down the line must they consider them? What happens if their decision wrecks Economy A but enriches Economy B? etc etc.

 

You surely do not believe that the EU ever considered the effects of it's diktats on NZ, for example?






Geektastic

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  #1580072 25-Jun-2016 12:15
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sir1963:

 

Geektastic:

 

mattwnz:

 

Finch:

 

Can somebody please tell me what this means for NZ?

 

Should I be shopping on some specific websites for some bargains?

 

 

 

 

Apparently it will cost $150 million a year for the NZ economy according to one expert on RNZ. IANAFE, but think it all depends on what happens to the UK economy now. If it gets worse it should make things cheaper for NZers to buy stuff from the UK. But it will make NZ stuff more expensive for people in the UK, so will be less willing to buy from NZ, or travel to NZ on holiday. But that pressumes NZs dollar doesn't also weaken. 

 

 

 

 

Send MFAT to knock on the door and sort out a trade agreement.

 

 

 

 

There are a LOT of other countries that will be years ahead of us.

 

 

 

 

On the plus side, we only have lamb, cheese and milk to sell so it won't take long to agree! ;-)






shk292
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  #1580074 25-Jun-2016 12:21
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It's interesting to note that the pre-referendum name-calling and negativity that dominated the Remain campaign has now stepped up to weapons-grade in social media and forums such as this.
Perhaps a more positive campaign focusing on the benefits of a federal Europe would have produced a different result?

 
 
 
 


dejadeadnz
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  #1580076 25-Jun-2016 12:23
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Oh because Farage's little Postergate and all the assorted tactics by luminaries like Gove was also so positive and non ad hominem. Riiiiight.

Rikkitic
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  #1580079 25-Jun-2016 12:30
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dejadeadnz:

 

Rikkitic:

 

 

 

Jeez, don't hold back on the sweeping generalisations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the incredible insight. As I freely admitted, by definition not all the individuals within the classes I described are nasty and I obviously don't believe it to be right to immediately judge someone as unworthy per se just because they fit within those groups. Turn down your sensitivity metre for a moment and face some obvious truths. The poll concerned and the graphic that Alexx highlighted revealed consistent, reproducible results across many important issues of our time. Which groups dominate the climate-change deniers, for example? The uneducated, old and stupid. Who hates immigrants and immigration? 

 

 

If young, intelligent, highly educated young people want a result that suits them, maybe they should get off their young, intelligent, highly educated backsides and bother to vote. I’m sure someone as young, intelligent and highly educated as you can explain to them the intricacies of ticking a box.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


shk292
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  #1580083 25-Jun-2016 12:37
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dejadeadnz: Oh because Farage's little Postergate and all the assorted tactics by luminaries like Gove was also so positive and non ad hominem. Riiiiight.

I must have missed the ad hominem stuff by the exit campaign, it was probably drowned out by all the comparisons to Trump. I also haven't seen any racism by Forage although I'm told he uses it a lot.

dejadeadnz
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  #1580090 25-Jun-2016 12:47
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Rikkitic:

 

 

 

If young, intelligent, highly educated young people want a result that suits them, maybe they should get off their young, intelligent, highly educated backsides and bother to vote. I’m sure someone as young, intelligent and highly educated as you can explain to them the intricacies of ticking a box.

 

 

 

 

 

And way to completely miss the point yet again. There are two issues here: majoritarianism might work on a political level but it can at least be argued that decent, ethically-focussed individuals ought to exercise their vote in a way that gives consideration to the vulnerable, next generation, and so forth. I am pretty hard-pressed to be convinced that the old, uneducated, and illberal crowd do any of that. And I am not sure what your little lecture about voting has anything to do with, well, any of the previous point. Do you seriously believe that intelligent people don't know how to vote? Or might it be, heavens forbid, that they are tired of having their voices drowned out by politicians and demographics? And I have to say, unusually for me, I agree with Networkn: it's massively concerning that such long-term, constitutional changes to a society can be determined by a bare majority of a few percent at one moment in time. Whilst in theory Britain can negotiate to get back into the EU at a later point, pragmatically speaking this simply can't happen.

 

IF things go as south as has been predicted after Brexit, guess who are some of the hardest hit? The young and vulnerable, including the voices of those just below voting age now, which all the Brexit mob have totally ignored. But hey lots of them will either be chewing on a pension or six feet under by that point, so why should they care, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  #1580091 25-Jun-2016 12:54
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Well...as London was the only area apart from Scotland to vote to remain, maybe the politicians should have listened to those outside of London as well, instead of trying to forget they exist...


gzt

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  #1580094 25-Jun-2016 13:03
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Man mocked after saying shocked at brexit and didn't think his leave vote would count. Article gives other examples of voter regret:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683029/man-votes-leave-twitter-adam-bbc

This raises the possibility that voters will punish the conservative party for the result.

Many voters were thinking in FPP terms like normal UK election.

Rikkitic
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  #1580095 25-Jun-2016 13:12
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dejadeadnz:

 

Rikkitic:

 

 

 

If young, intelligent, highly educated young people want a result that suits them, maybe they should get off their young, intelligent, highly educated backsides and bother to vote. I’m sure someone as young, intelligent and highly educated as you can explain to them the intricacies of ticking a box.

 

 

 

 

 

And way to completely miss the point yet again. There are two issues here: majoritarianism might work on a political level but it can at least be argued that decent, ethically-focussed individuals ought to exercise their vote in a way that gives consideration to the vulnerable, next generation, and so forth. I am pretty hard-pressed to be convinced that the old, uneducated, and illberal crowd do any of that. And I am not sure what your little lecture about voting has anything to do with, well, any of the previous point. Do you seriously believe that intelligent people don't know how to vote? Or might it be, heavens forbid, that they are tired of having their voices drowned out by politicians and demographics? And I have to say, unusually for me, I agree with Networkn: it's massively concerning that such long-term, constitutional changes to a society can be determined by a bare majority of a few percent at one moment in time. Whilst in theory Britain can negotiate to get back into the EU at a later point, pragmatically speaking this simply can't happen.

 

IF things go as south as has been predicted after Brexit, guess who are some of the hardest hit? The young and vulnerable, including the voices of those just below voting age now, which all the Brexit mob have totally ignored. But hey lots of them will either be chewing on a pension or six feet under by that point, so why should they care, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 I actually also agree with Networkn’s point, I just don’t agree with your rant. Issues of this magnitude should not be decided by simple majority vote but dismissing (almost) everyone you don’t agree with as simple-minded or evil says more about you than about them.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


dejadeadnz
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  #1580096 25-Jun-2016 13:12
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gzt: Man mocked after saying shocked at brexit and didn't think his leave vote would count. Article gives other examples of voter regret:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683029/man-votes-leave-twitter-adam-bbc

This raises the possibility that voters will punish the conservative party for the result.

Many voters were thinking in FPP terms like normal UK election.

 

You raise a really good point. I get very concerned by the endless perpetuating of the view that everybody should vote and have their say etc. To be honest, it would be far better if the irrationally angry, protest voter-types and single issue voters stayed out of elections. The same goes for people who refuse to open-mindedly examine all the major issues. I personally would like to see civics classes where kids are taught (in a balanced way) the serious moral and social responsibilities associated with voting. I remember when I was a 7th former (aged barely 16 - I skipped a couple of years ahead), our school principal was telling the 18 year olds to vote National because it supported bulk funding of schools and that's better for our school. Even at my young age then, something about that kind of talk struck me as incredibly wrong.

 

 

 

 


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