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Rikkitic
Awrrr
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  #1580101 25-Jun-2016 13:41
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“Irrationally angry, protest voter-types and single issue voters” make up a significant part of what is generally referred to as the democratic process. As is often pointed out, democracy is messy but I would not want to live under a system in which voters had to be vetted by someone like you. A problem with those who consider themselves superior by virtue of intelligence, education, or morals is the compulsion they seem to feel to dictate how others should think, feel and behave. Your ideas have been tried and they did not work out so well. The vulgar unwashed masses actually tend to do okay when given the opportunity. I don’t think they need self-appointed referees to rank them according to IQ and subjective criteria of open-mindedness.

 

 





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Fred99
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  #1580105 25-Jun-2016 13:57
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SJB:

 

Fred99:

 

networkn:

 

shk292:

 

 

 

Exactly

 

The right thing to do is not always the financially expedient thing to do

 

 

Right, I get that, but it's not just Britan they are impacting. There is a chance of a global recession. I believe people should consider the global impact. Right or wrongly, Britan plays a major part in the way the world's finances are glued together.

 

 

 

 

It's not just financial impact either.  The result is a victory for xenophobic isolationist factions worldwide - and it's very obvious where those sentiments lead.  It's no wonder Trump has joined in to support the angry mob.  If extremism becomes mainstream, then we're in dangerous times.

 

 

 

 

I think you are being unfair in effectively labelling everybody who voted leave as xenophobic. Brits as a group are far less xenophobic than New Zealanders in my experience (at least here on the Mainland they are).

 

It's not the fear of foreigners that caused people to vote leave. It's the sheer numbers of them moving to the UK that was the problem, 1 million every 3 years in a country that is already overcrowded.

 

And immigration wasn't the only issue although the press would give you the impression it was. Sovereignty was a major problem with EU law taking precedence over UK law. People like to feel in control of their own country.

 

Control by unelected officials, creeping federalism etc etc. Any number of issues with the EU caused people to vote the way they did.

 

 

 

 

I'm not "effectively labelling everybody who voted to leave as xenophobic".

 

But it's very naive to think that there isn't strong support from xenophobes, racists, bigots in the Brexit camp (and in the Trump camp).

 

I don't dispute that there's racism and xenophobia in NZ, and for sure in the SI (I live in Chch).  The last thing I'd want to see is a movement giving them a voice gaining traction. So far when Winston Peters etc step out of line, rejection of his agenda by other political parties is universal.  Brash's "iwi-kiwi" attempt to stir up populist support by dog-whistling racist mantras seems to have consigned him to obscurity.

 

Compared to the UK - hard to say.  NZ doesn't have a history of race riots in the past 1/2 century, but OTOH NZ is a very small country - and I believe mainly a good one

 

 


dejadeadnz
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  #1580108 25-Jun-2016 13:59
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Rikkitic, I really think you need to learn to read before responding. Nothing I wrote suggests that I support banning anyone from voting. I certainly wouldn't mind any “irrationally angry, protest voter-types and single issue voters" exercising an ethical choice to refrain from voting, however. A rather big difference that you seem to struggle to understand.

 

 

 

@Fred99: People are easily made uncomfortable when they are forced to confront the reality that their political bedfellows are often incredibly, well, nasty. And it's amazing how far self-delusion can go to avoid a bit of personal discomfort.

 

 

 

 




Rikkitic
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  #1580130 25-Jun-2016 14:07
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I feel very reassured.

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


DaveB
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  #1580143 25-Jun-2016 14:21
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Rikkitic:

 

“Irrationally angry, protest voter-types and single issue voters” make up a significant part of what is generally referred to as the democratic process. As is often pointed out, democracy is messy but I would not want to live under a system in which voters had to be vetted by someone like you. A problem with those who consider themselves superior by virtue of intelligence, education, or morals is the compulsion they seem to feel to dictate how others should think, feel and behave. Your ideas have been tried and they did not work out so well. The vulgar unwashed masses actually tend to do okay when given the opportunity. I don’t think they need self-appointed referees to rank them according to IQ and subjective criteria of open-mindedness.

 

 

 

 

 

As one historian has mentioned "This is the most tumultuous event of modern times, a people's revolt against the elite that's been brewing for years"

 

A revolt against the self-appointed in this case. They listened to the message "take back control". 

 

 


eracode
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  #1580144 25-Jun-2016 14:21
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dejadeadnz:

 

Rikkitic, I really think you need to learn to read before responding. Nothing I wrote suggests that I support banning anyone from voting. I certainly wouldn't mind any “irrationally angry, protest voter-types and single issue voters" exercising an ethical choice to refrain from voting, however. A rather big difference that you seem to struggle to understand.

 

 

 

@Fred99: People are easily made uncomfortable when they are forced to confront the reality that their political bedfellows are often incredibly, well, nasty. And it's amazing how far self-delusion can go to avoid a bit of personal discomfort.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But still you "... get very concerned by the endless perpetuating of the view that everybody should vote and have their say etc..."?

 

 





Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.


dejadeadnz
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  #1580150 25-Jun-2016 14:29
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eracode:

 

 

 

But still you "... get very concerned by the endless perpetuating of the view that everybody should vote and have their say etc..."?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please read it carefully. Notice how I didn't say ".... endless perpetuating of the view that everybody should GET TO vote and have their say etc". What I was saying is that people who simply want to angrily cast votes without regard for consequences shouldn't be encouraged to just go and vote, as a lot of people still seem to believe. I was replying to Gzt's post about irrational protest votes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 




shk292
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  #1580159 25-Jun-2016 15:12
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I think there is a lot of misrepresenting those who voted "exit" here.  They're not all, or even in the majority, angry, vicious, selfish, xenophobic or racist.  They just want British people to have the democratic right to determine Britain's laws and control its borders.

 

Personally, I didn't vote, although I could have and would have voted to exit, and I'm getting quite irked at being labelled as stupid, or poorly educated or racist or selfish.  I'm none of these things but I believe quite strongly that the people of a nation should be free to determine its future within the bounds of international law.


shk292
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  #1580168 25-Jun-2016 15:18
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Fred99:

 

I'm not "effectively labelling everybody who voted to leave as xenophobic".

 

But it's very naive to think that there isn't strong support from xenophobes, racists, bigots in the Brexit camp (and in the Trump camp).

 

I don't dispute that there's racism and xenophobia in NZ, and for sure in the SI (I live in Chch).  The last thing I'd want to see is a movement giving them a voice gaining traction. So far when Winston Peters etc step out of line, rejection of his agenda by other political parties is universal.  Brash's "iwi-kiwi" attempt to stir up populist support by dog-whistling racist mantras seems to have consigned him to obscurity.

 

Compared to the UK - hard to say.  NZ doesn't have a history of race riots in the past 1/2 century, but OTOH NZ is a very small country - and I believe mainly a good one

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone (sensible) said Brexit wasn't supported by xenophobes etc.  But you seem to be inferring that because a certain group supports something, then right-thinking people shouldn't, regardless of the issue.

 

So if trade unions support equal rights for women, and I think trade unionists are a waste of space, I must be against women's rights?  Or (at the risk of invoking Godwin's) because Hitler liked motorways I should insist they're all ripped up?  That makes about as much sense as saying we shouldn't vote for Brexit because Nigel Farage liked it


Bobdn
222 posts

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  #1580169 25-Jun-2016 15:22

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/437075/brexit-german-leadership-aghast-brexit-they-helped-cause

 

I thought this was an interesting article.  It suggests that some of Merkel's action may have inadvertently caused some voters to vote leave.   Apparently Germany may have become too big for its boots.  


freitasm
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  #1580184 25-Jun-2016 15:44
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Friendly reminder that in this forum Godwin's Law means instant ban.




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shk292
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  #1580187 25-Jun-2016 15:53
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freitasm: Friendly reminder that in this forum Godwin's Law means instant ban.

 

I think I skirted around it but will edit that post if you prefer


Fred99
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  #1580196 25-Jun-2016 16:01
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shk292:

 

Fred99:

 

I'm not "effectively labelling everybody who voted to leave as xenophobic".

 

But it's very naive to think that there isn't strong support from xenophobes, racists, bigots in the Brexit camp (and in the Trump camp).

 

I don't dispute that there's racism and xenophobia in NZ, and for sure in the SI (I live in Chch).  The last thing I'd want to see is a movement giving them a voice gaining traction. So far when Winston Peters etc step out of line, rejection of his agenda by other political parties is universal.  Brash's "iwi-kiwi" attempt to stir up populist support by dog-whistling racist mantras seems to have consigned him to obscurity.

 

Compared to the UK - hard to say.  NZ doesn't have a history of race riots in the past 1/2 century, but OTOH NZ is a very small country - and I believe mainly a good one

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone (sensible) said Brexit wasn't supported by xenophobes etc.  But you seem to be inferring that because a certain group supports something, then right-thinking people shouldn't, regardless of the issue.

 

So if trade unions support equal rights for women, and I think trade unionists are a waste of space, I must be against women's rights?  Or (at the risk of invoking Godwin's) because Hitler liked motorways I should insist they're all ripped up?  That makes about as much sense as saying we shouldn't vote for Brexit because Nigel Farage liked it

 

 

 

 

I don't infer anything of the sort.

 

Right-thinking people should in my opinion think beyond the immediate and obvious "solution" put in front of them.

 

I can understand concerns about globalisation and loss of sovereignty, but despite faults, in the past 100 years or so globalisation has improved the lot of many people, nationalism, xenophobia, and bigotry has resulted in the violent deaths of many tens/hundreds of millions.

 

In that that context, I see the English/Welsh vote for "Brexit" being indicative of the very thing the world should be uniting to avoid.  

 

 

 

 


PhantomNVD
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  #1580199 25-Jun-2016 16:07
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Bobdn:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/437075/brexit-german-leadership-aghast-brexit-they-helped-cause


I thought this was an interesting article.  It suggests that some of Merkel's action may have inadvertently caused some voters to vote leave.   Apparently Germany may have become too big for its boots.  



And from that article (thanks)

"The EU as an economic project was a good idea. But only European elites signed off on ever closer political union and de facto rule by unelected Eurocrats in Brussels. These elites weren’t interested in making their case democratically, preferring to ignore popular concerns while demonizing any opposition to their supranational project. The British electorate has now pushed back. Will the EU learn the right lessons or will it double down on political integration? I suspect the latter, but time will tell. "

PhantomNVD
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  #1580200 25-Jun-2016 16:10
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This tickled my sense of humour though 😂

Click to see full size

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