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MikeB4
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  #1580291 25-Jun-2016 19:08
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This was an interesting thread but the tone has got too aggressive. So TTFN

dejadeadnz
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  #1580304 25-Jun-2016 19:29
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SJB: Presumably that also means 'deal to' the intelligent, well educated, hard working, racially tolerant 18-25 year olds that voted the 'correct' way to remain.

 

Or maybe the leave voters should be identified, separated and dealt with. Wait.. hasn't that happened on occasion to other groups in the past?

 

 

So we are going to sink to the level of comparing what I mean by dealing to (which is the oft-noted point by other EU members that the UK cannot play the game of wanting free trade without freedom of movement of citizens, for example) to what certain regimes used to get up to? Don't worry, the reactionaries in the UK will be safe: most Europeans actually still respect the rule of law and institutions of human rights, including for example the European Court of Human Rights. They won't do anything nasty other than telling the likes of Boris Johnson that he can't have his cake and eat it too.

 

Have fun!

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


PhantomNVD
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  #1580312 25-Jun-2016 19:51
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Mobile phone roaming? An 'issue'?😳

If NZ/AU can make a plan then UK/EU will do fine 👍

mattwnz
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  #1580317 25-Jun-2016 20:28
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Speaking to two people who voted for Brexit, they are glad it went through. When the UK originally joined 40 years ago it was solely about economics. But it became a lot more, with some really stupid laws. Migration was also a major problem, when a country has no ral say in who can come in. The fact that UK never accepted the Euro was really the writing on the wall for this going through.

eracode
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  #1580341 25-Jun-2016 21:37
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PhantomNVD: Mobile phone roaming? An 'issue'?😳

If NZ/AU can make a plan then UK/EU will do fine 👍

 

Im sure you're right but as I understand it there is a new arrangement coming into effect next year which the UK was part of but will now be outside of - they will now have to negotiate separately. All I was saying is that there will be thousand-and-one new matters to be attended to.





Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.


dejadeadnz
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  #1580343 25-Jun-2016 21:59
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And tidbits of a summary by The Guardian:

 

 

 

While 73% of voters under 25 wanted to stay in the EU, 60% of over 65s opted to leave. Remain was the preferred stance of 62% of 25 to 34-year-olds, narrowing to 52% in the 35 to 44 range, but Leave took a majority among 45 to 54-year-olds with 56% backing, expanding to 57% in the 55 to 64 bracket.

 

Babyboomers and grey power wanting to reach from beyond their future graves....

 

 

 

 


Bobdn
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  #1580344 25-Jun-2016 22:11

dejadeadnz:

 

And tidbits of a summary by The Guardian:

 

 

 

While 73% of voters under 25 wanted to stay in the EU, 60% of over 65s opted to leave. Remain was the preferred stance of 62% of 25 to 34-year-olds, narrowing to 52% in the 35 to 44 range, but Leave took a majority among 45 to 54-year-olds with 56% backing, expanding to 57% in the 55 to 64 bracket.

 

Babyboomers and grey power wanting to reach from beyond their future graves....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How outrageous! A 45 year old with maybe another 40 to 50 years of life wanting to have a say about his or her country.  The Brexit decision should have been left strictly for the "no borders" vibrant youth of today.

 

If only Logan's Run was more than just fantasy.   


 
 
 
 


DaveB
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  #1580348 25-Jun-2016 22:16
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mattwnz: Speaking to two people who voted for Brexit, they are glad it went through. When the UK originally joined 40 years ago it was solely about economics. But it became a lot more, with some really stupid laws. Migration was also a major problem, when a country has no ral say in who can come in. The fact that UK never accepted the Euro was really the writing on the wall for this going through.

 

If I had been allowed to vote, I would have, and with no hesitation.

 

I may be older but certainly NOT, as generalised by a couple of narrow minded contributors "the old and dying trying to permanently influence your future, along with the poorly educated/uneducated and stupid" or "Xenophobic".

 

I am incredibly proud of most of my family who voted out. Why? Who are they? They are all self employed (or like minded) people who at the end of the day are doing quite well for themselves. Normal middle class folk, with mortgages and business loans. Tories for the main part. I think my brothers business employs 15 people and my fathers used to employ 10.

 

Like most of us, they are getting through life and managing to put a few dollars to one side. They live in nice quiet areas, in nice houses close to the Cotswalds, Wales and Worcester.

 

So why put that at risk with a Brexit?

 

They are concerned about what is going on around them, especially with fellow Brits - "lower class" if you like. Many of these are really suffering now.

 

Yes, they are concerned about people less well off than they are. They know that they are going to have to sacrifice to put this right, and THEY are the sort that are willing to do that in order to help the country get back to a point that it is workable again. Make no mistake about it, there are many Brits like that.

 

It is in our culture, hence things like the National Health Service and other services for the "people". 

 

Yes, they are concerned about immigration. Not because they are Xenophobic. They recognise that basic services are close to collapsing due to continued and uncontrolled immigration, especially in the areas where people are less well off than they are. Make no mistake, they have lived in a middle class mixed ethnicity area all their lives and enjoy it, and would fit into NZ with ease. But it is changing in other ways, special religious schools that preach how life should be lead. Sharia courts and special laws for religions, a total lack of assimilation.

 

Importantly, Sovereignty IS an issue. A very big issue - especially when you have hate preachers on the street and the EU will not allow them to be deported. Murderers cannot be deported. The EU is a great place for Human Rights Lawyers. Sadly many people now feel that their identity was being stripped away from them. 

 

So, my family, like many of my mid fifties friends are, for the most part, concerned about others and I am very proud of that. I am sure that there are many others within that 52% vote just like them.

 

Now, combine that with a vote from many Labour party voters who have nothing left to lose? That equals a Brexit and shows me a country with 52% balls and 48% selfishness, fear, or just plain independence.

 

Managing that other 48% will however be quite difficult. Self interest is understandable, but fear and moaning is another thing. 


dejadeadnz
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  #1580349 25-Jun-2016 22:21
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Yes, I can see how those regions most economically dependent on the EU will stand to do great out of Brexit. But carry on nonetheless.....

 

 

 

 


DaveB
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  #1580350 25-Jun-2016 22:21
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dejadeadnz:

 

And tidbits of a summary by The Guardian:

 

 

 

While 73% of voters under 25 wanted to stay in the EU, 60% of over 65s opted to leave. Remain was the preferred stance of 62% of 25 to 34-year-olds, narrowing to 52% in the 35 to 44 range, but Leave took a majority among 45 to 54-year-olds with 56% backing, expanding to 57% in the 55 to 64 bracket.

 

Babyboomers and grey power wanting to reach from beyond their future graves....

 

 

 

 

 

Yawn


DaveB
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  #1580354 25-Jun-2016 22:36
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dejadeadnz:

 

 

 

Personally, I can't wait till the likes of Germany and France really stand up to the UK and deal to them.

 

  

 

Again, I will ask you why is that then?

 

Please enlighten me. I really do want to try and understand your obvious bitterness and resentment towards older people. More importantly, I really do want to understand why YOU - (I assume a mere Kiwi with no disclosed close links to the UK) wants to see another country deal to another country. I really do want to understand what makes a Kiwi so angry at this. And yes - your anger sadly, has been obvious.

 

 


alexx
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  #1580355 25-Jun-2016 22:36
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SJB:

 

networkn:

 

 

 

No, I said <5% of the country could properly understand the far reaching financial consequences of this decision.

 

 

I think you're wrong. The remain camp have been hammering the same message about financial doom and gloom for weeks. You would have to be deaf and blind not to have heard it. And it was a very simple message. House prices would fall, jobs would be lost, pensions were at risk etc etc

 

The majority of voters decided other reasons to leave took precedence.

 

If the remain camp had provided positive reasons for staying in the EU (if they could think of any) and not campaigned so negatively the result might have been different.

 

 

The Remain campaign certainly could have done a better job, but it had to compete against a Leave campaign promising an extra £350 million a week for the NHS and the Murdoch media serving up regular front pages like these.

 

 

It appears that the Leave campaign is now distancing itself from those NHS promises, but clearly a lot of people were fooled.

 

Nigel Farage: £350 million pledge to fund the NHS was 'a mistake’.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/nigel-farage-350-million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/





#include <standard.disclaimer>


Geektastic

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  #1580357 25-Jun-2016 22:48
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You do realise that there is more than a scintilla of truth in those headlines, bold though they may be? They are not just a collection of made up nonsense.






dejadeadnz
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  #1580359 25-Jun-2016 22:58
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DaveB:

 

dejadeadnz:

 

 

 

Personally, I can't wait till the likes of Germany and France really stand up to the UK and deal to them.

 

  

 

Again, I will ask you why is that then?

 

Please enlighten me. I really do want to try and understand your obvious bitterness and resentment towards older people. More importantly, I really do want to understand why YOU - (I assume a mere Kiwi with no disclosed close links to the UK) wants to see another country deal to another country. I really do want to understand what makes a Kiwi so angry at this. And yes - your anger sadly, has been obvious.

 

 

 

 

I have no particular bitterness towards older people. I have a very high level of personal dislike for the electorate that has backed positions such as Brexit because they are -- broadly speaking -- anti-progress reactionaries who are reliably and repeatedly revealed as the sort that are anti things like multiculturalism, international human rights instruments, immigration, measures to mitigate climate change, and so forth. Again, broadly speaking, as a member of the under 35 years old professional, well-educated group that prefers almost the exact opposite things in life to those in the Brexit electorate, I resent how the "other" electorate is making such profound and almost-irreversible changes to our world and polity that will undeniably limit the options and choices of "my" electorate and also those of my age group and under who nonetheless disagree with my worldviews in the future.

 

As for my particular wish for the rest of the EU to deal to the UK (on the terms I previously described), I consider this just payback for the demagoguery by the anti-EU crowd about EU human rights law and the EU Court of Human Rights, which ironically simply enforce values and laws entirely in comport with the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights, which the UK freely signed up before its EU membership but nonetheless feels somehow free to ignore as this suited the Tory/reactionary agenda. It is also (in my eyes) quite just payback for an electorate swallowing the foolish lies by the Brexit camp that somehow the UK will retain or continue to deserve all its current trade privileges whilst repudiating all the institutions and values of the EU. 

 

But unlike your professed view of wanting to deny other people's human rights elsewhere, whilst I make no secret of my personal dislike for the other camp, I am certain that myself and people of my ilk will respect all your lot's legal rights. We'll simply hope that the history books will not be kind upon your choices.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Geektastic

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  #1580360 25-Jun-2016 23:04
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dejadeadnz:

 

DaveB:

 

dejadeadnz:

 

 

 

Personally, I can't wait till the likes of Germany and France really stand up to the UK and deal to them.

 

  

 

Again, I will ask you why is that then?

 

Please enlighten me. I really do want to try and understand your obvious bitterness and resentment towards older people. More importantly, I really do want to understand why YOU - (I assume a mere Kiwi with no disclosed close links to the UK) wants to see another country deal to another country. I really do want to understand what makes a Kiwi so angry at this. And yes - your anger sadly, has been obvious.

 

 

 

 

I have no particular bitterness towards older people. I have a very high level of personal dislike for the electorate that has backed positions such as Brexit because they are -- broadly speaking -- anti-progress reactionaries who are reliably and repeatedly revealed as the sort that are anti things like multiculturalism, international human rights instruments, immigration, measures to mitigate climate change, and so forth. Again, broadly speaking, as a member of the under 35 years old professional, well-educated group that prefers almost the exact opposite things in life to those in the Brexit electorate, I resent how the "other" electorate is making such profound and almost-irreversible changes to our world and polity that will undeniably limit the options and choices of "my" electorate and also those of my age group and under who nonetheless disagree with my worldviews in the future.

 

As for my particular wish for the rest of the EU to deal to the UK (on the terms I previously described), I consider this just payback for the demagoguery by the anti-EU crowd about EU human rights law and the EU Court of Human Rights, which ironically simply enforce values and laws entirely in comport with the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights, which the UK freely signed up before its EU membership but nonetheless feels somehow free to ignore as this suited the Tory/reactionary agenda. It is also (in my eyes) quite just payback for an electorate swallowing the foolish lies by the Brexit camp that somehow the UK will retain or continue to deserve all its current trade privileges whilst repudiating all the institutions and values of the EU. 

 

But unlike your professed view of wanting to deny other people's human rights elsewhere, whilst I make no secret of my personal dislike for the other camp, I am certain that myself and people of my ilk will respect all your lot's legal rights. We'll simply hope that the history books will not be kind upon your choices.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"the sort that are anti things like multiculturalism, international human rights instruments, immigration, measures to mitigate climate change, and so forth."

 

 

 

From this, we can deduce that you disagree with their position. However your assumption that they are wrong and you are not is not explained...






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