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dejadeadnz
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  #1580361 25-Jun-2016 23:14
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Put it this way, I have zero desire to engage with anyone who wishes to repudiate the values of being a civilised human being, which is what people who shout down international human rights law whilst signing up to them are doing. And if it's okay for the "other" camp to just hate the overwhelming informed scientific consensus on climate change, by way of yet another example, why shouldn't I and people in my camp get to simply dislike people who repudiate an informed, scientific consensus? At least have some moral consistency.

 

 

 

 


Bobdn
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  #1580362 25-Jun-2016 23:17

dejadeadnz:

 

DaveB:

 

dejadeadnz:

 

 

 

Personally, I can't wait till the likes of Germany and France really stand up to the UK and deal to them.

 

  

 

Again, I will ask you why is that then?

 

Please enlighten me. I really do want to try and understand your obvious bitterness and resentment towards older people. More importantly, I really do want to understand why YOU - (I assume a mere Kiwi with no disclosed close links to the UK) wants to see another country deal to another country. I really do want to understand what makes a Kiwi so angry at this. And yes - your anger sadly, has been obvious.

 

 

 

 

I have no particular bitterness towards older people. I have a very high level of personal dislike for the electorate that has backed positions such as Brexit because they are -- broadly speaking -- anti-progress reactionaries who are reliably and repeatedly revealed as the sort that are anti things like multiculturalism, international human rights instruments, immigration, measures to mitigate climate change, and so forth. Again, broadly speaking, as a member of the under 35 years old professional, well-educated group that prefers almost the exact opposite things in life to those in the Brexit electorate, I resent how the "other" electorate is making such profound and almost-irreversible changes to our world and polity that will undeniably limit the options and choices of "my" electorate and also those of my age group and under who nonetheless disagree with my worldviews in the future.

 

As for my particular wish for the rest of the EU to deal to the UK (on the terms I previously described), I consider this just payback for the demagoguery by the anti-EU crowd about EU human rights law and the EU Court of Human Rights, which ironically simply enforce values and laws entirely in comport with the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights, which the UK freely signed up before its EU membership but nonetheless feels somehow free to ignore as this suited the Tory/reactionary agenda. It is also (in my eyes) quite just payback for an electorate swallowing the foolish lies by the Brexit camp that somehow the UK will retain or continue to deserve all its current trade privileges whilst repudiating all the institutions and values of the EU. 

 

But unlike your professed view of wanting to deny other people's human rights elsewhere, whilst I make no secret of my personal dislike for the other camp, I am certain that myself and people of my ilk will respect all your lot's legal rights. We'll simply hope that the history books will not be kind upon your choices.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/angela-merkel-german-chancellor-says-multiculturalism-is-a-sham-a6773111.html

 

Here Merkel has an issue with multiculturalism but at the same time supported Britain remaining in the EU.  I don't want to sound patronizing to you but politics can be complicated and multi dimensional You're young, you'll get the hang of it in time.  

 

 


 
 
 
 


alexx
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  #1580363 25-Jun-2016 23:26
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Geektastic:

 

You do realise that there is more than a scintilla of truth in those headlines, bold though they may be? They are not just a collection of made up nonsense.

 

 

Perhaps there could be a scintilla of truth and even though the “Migrants Take Our Jobs” and “Jobless Migrant” claims appear to be a contradiction, perhaps this could be true for different migrants.

But imagine the same volume of headlines in New Zealand papers, but with NZ instead of UK and ASIAN or CHINESE instead of MIGRANTS, each time listing the various negative impacts that immigration might have for our country.

Perhaps there would also be a scintilla of truth, but I’m trying to imagine the reaction here if those were the regular front page headlines.

 

 





#include <standard.disclaimer>


dejadeadnz
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  #1580364 25-Jun-2016 23:31
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Bobdn:

 

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/angela-merkel-german-chancellor-says-multiculturalism-is-a-sham-a6773111.html

 

Here Merkel has an issue with multiculturalism but at the same time supported Britain remaining in the EU.  I don't want to sound patronizing to you but politics can be complicated and multi dimensional You're young, you'll get the hang of it in time.  

 

 

 

 

You appear to judge people based on what they profess to believe in or not. I prefer to judge people based on their conduct. Merkel's politics is conservative in nature (generally speaking) which is something that I abhor. However, the facts tell me that in a world that hardly does enough for refugees, she has nonetheless shown leadership and done far, far more than what the UK has and, most importantly within the context of our debate here, what any of the reactionary Brexit types would ever support. So I wouldn't the words of a politician trying to placate her electorate too literally.

 

It might be a surprise to you that I actually understand rather well that multiculturalism and politics are actually often matters of degree.* But somebody who is prepared to risk major political capital on helping people of vastly different backgrounds against the baying of a demographics-enabled reactionary electorate wouldn't be someone that I or any fair-minded person would demonise.

 

 

 

* Here I can't resist pointing out the pomposity of old people in often assuming that merely being old is some guarantee of wisdom. 


Geektastic

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  #1580392 26-Jun-2016 00:22
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alexx:

 

Geektastic:

 

You do realise that there is more than a scintilla of truth in those headlines, bold though they may be? They are not just a collection of made up nonsense.

 

 

Perhaps there could be a scintilla of truth and even though the “Migrants Take Our Jobs” and “Jobless Migrant” claims appear to be a contradiction, perhaps this could be true for different migrants.

But imagine the same volume of headlines in New Zealand papers, but with NZ instead of UK and ASIAN or CHINESE instead of MIGRANTS, each time listing the various negative impacts that immigration might have for our country.

Perhaps there would also be a scintilla of truth, but I’m trying to imagine the reaction here if those were the regular front page headlines.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's a question of scale. What British people are faced with could not realistically happen here. Official UK figures released last week revealed that the population exceeded 65 million - or about 14.5 New Zealands - last year.

 

     

  1. The current scale of migration to the UK, 330,000 a year, of which roughly half is from the EU, is completely unsustainable.
  2. As a result of this mass immigration our population is projected to rise by half a million every year – the equivalent of a city the size of Liverpool – for as long as immigration is permitted on the present scale
  3. England is already twice as crowded as Germany and 3.5 times as crowded as France.
  4. The additional population growth makes congestion worse and adds to the pressures on public services. This comes at a time when public spending is being reduced.
  5. One in four children born in England and Wales is to a foreign born mother. The rise in the number of births has put pressure on NHS maternity services.
  6. It has also led to a shortage of school places. 60% of local authorities will have a shortage of primary school places by 2018.
  7. The UK has a serious housing crisis. Mass immigration is the main reason for the additional demand. If it continues at current levels, we will need to build 135,000 new homes a year just to house new migrants and their families. This is 370 per day or one home every four minutes.
  8. Population growth on this scale renders integration of newcomers virtually impossible.\
  9. Three quarters of the public want to see immigration reduced and half of them want it cut by a lot.
  10. To stop the rapid rise in the UK’s population size, net migration would have to be reduced to well below 100,000 a year. It is currently at over 300,000.

 

 

 

The migrants taking jobs and being jobless are of course entirely different people. Britain's welfare payments are amongst the most generous in the EU, so many people moved from poorer parts of the EU (300,000 Poles live in the UK for example) and many of them collect benefits that they remit to their families who remain in their native country.

 

Migrants cannot arrive in NZ unless NZ gives them permission to be here. ANY citizen of the EU can simply decide tomorrow to move to Britain and expect benefits, state healthcare and so on.






MikeB4
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  #1580404 26-Jun-2016 08:12
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dejadeadnz:

Put it this way, I have zero desire to engage with anyone who wishes to repudiate the values of being a civilised human being, which is what people who shout down international human rights law whilst signing up to them are doing. And if it's okay for the "other" camp to just hate the overwhelming informed scientific consensus on climate change, by way of yet another example, why shouldn't I and people in my camp get to simply dislike people who repudiate an informed, scientific consensus? At least have some moral consistency.


 


 



One last thing from me and I am out.

You expound human rights etc yet your post here are discriminatory against many people's. Ageism and racism are painted with the same brush.

Stop claiming the moral high ground when you are posting comment filled with prejudice and insult to those of differing socio economic back grounds or age.

PhantomNVD
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  #1580406 26-Jun-2016 08:26
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eracode:

PhantomNVD: Mobile phone roaming? An 'issue'?😳

If NZ/AU can make a plan then UK/EU will do fine 👍


Im sure you're right but as I understand it there is a new arrangement coming into effect next year which the UK was part of but will now be outside of - they will now have to negotiate separately. All I was saying is that there will be thousand-and-one new matters to be attended to.



It will take at least two years for Article 50 to work out, and in the meantime they will be included in all current deals and laws. Only after they disengage might these deals be renegotiated, and most (that suit both parties) would surely just carry on with a 'copy' of the same contract with the U.K. Signature instead of EU one...

IF the EU survives as a unit itself, I think UK internal issues will be far bigger. If a surviving EU entices Scottland and "United Ireland" into it, the internal border controls and deals will be far harder to negotiate and police IMHO.

 
 
 
 


Fred99
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  #1580413 26-Jun-2016 08:52
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SJB

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  #1580414 26-Jun-2016 08:54
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PhantomNVD:
eracode:

 

PhantomNVD: Mobile phone roaming? An 'issue'?😳

If NZ/AU can make a plan then UK/EU will do fine 👍

 

 

 

Im sure you're right but as I understand it there is a new arrangement coming into effect next year which the UK was part of but will now be outside of - they will now have to negotiate separately. All I was saying is that there will be thousand-and-one new matters to be attended to.

 



It will take at least two years for Article 50 to work out, and in the meantime they will be included in all current deals and laws. Only after they disengage might these deals be renegotiated, and most (that suit both parties) would surely just carry on with a 'copy' of the same contract with the U.K. Signature instead of EU one...

IF the EU survives as a unit itself, I think UK internal issues will be far bigger. If a surviving EU entices Scottland and "United Ireland" into it, the internal border controls and deals will be far harder to negotiate and police IMHO.

 

I think Scotland and NI would have a pretty difficult job getting into the EU. There are several countries (eg Spain) that have regions pushing for independence and those countries will block Scotland and NI to discourage their own regions.

 

I also think the EU itself is starting to realise it's too big to manage successfully so might put the lid on new arrivals for a long time. They have enough problems to sort out already.


Fred99
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  #1580416 26-Jun-2016 09:00
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Geektastic:
Fred99:

 

SJB:

 

 

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

networkn:

 

 

 

shk292:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly

 

 

 

The right thing to do is not always the financially expedient thing to do

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right, I get that, but it's not just Britan they are impacting. There is a chance of a global recession. I believe people should consider the global impact. Right or wrongly, Britan plays a major part in the way the world's finances are glued together.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's not just financial impact either.  The result is a victory for xenophobic isolationist factions worldwide - and it's very obvious where those sentiments lead.  It's no wonder Trump has joined in to support the angry mob.  If extremism becomes mainstream, then we're in dangerous times.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you are being unfair in effectively labelling everybody who voted leave as xenophobic. Brits as a group are far less xenophobic than New Zealanders in my experience (at least here on the Mainland they are).

 

 

 

It's not the fear of foreigners that caused people to vote leave. It's the sheer numbers of them moving to the UK that was the problem, 1 million every 3 years in a country that is already overcrowded.

 

 

 

And immigration wasn't the only issue although the press would give you the impression it was. Sovereignty was a major problem with EU law taking precedence over UK law. People like to feel in control of their own country.

 

 

 

Control by unelected officials, creeping federalism etc etc. Any number of issues with the EU caused people to vote the way they did.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not "effectively labelling everybody who voted to leave as xenophobic".

 

 

 

But it's very naive to think that there isn't strong support from xenophobes, racists, bigots in the Brexit camp (and in the Trump camp).

 

 

 

I don't dispute that there's racism and xenophobia in NZ, and for sure in the SI (I live in Chch).  The last thing I'd want to see is a movement giving them a voice gaining traction. So far when Winston Peters etc step out of line, rejection of his agenda by other political parties is universal.  Brash's "iwi-kiwi" attempt to stir up populist support by dog-whistling racist mantras seems to have consigned him to obscurity.

 

 

 

Compared to the UK - hard to say.  NZ doesn't have a history of race riots in the past 1/2 century, but OTOH NZ is a very small country - and I believe mainly a good one

 

 

 

 

 



Are you saying that those whose views you deem unacceptable should not be allowed to vote?

 

 

 

No - I'm gobsmacked that anybody posting in these forums could suggest that's "what I'm saying", or what I've ever said. 


Rikkitic
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  #1580420 26-Jun-2016 09:11
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dejadeadnz: 

 

Age may not bring wisdom but youth sure does bring arrogance. It wouldn’t hurt to dial things back a notch or two and take in the broader perspective. It also wouldn’t hurt to consider that even you will one day be old, and you may well hope that the young people of that time are a little kinder and less obsessed with ‘payback’.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


nakedmolerat
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  #1580422 26-Jun-2016 09:22
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@Geektastic Are you planning to move back to the UK?






SJB

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  #1580428 26-Jun-2016 09:37
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Here's an interesting possibility

 

Hilary Clinton - US President

 

Theresa May - British Prime minister

 

Angela Merkel - German Chancellor

 

Helen Clarke - Head of the UN

 

Not a man to be seen anywhere.


Geektastic

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  #1580429 26-Jun-2016 09:48
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Fred99:

 

 

 

 No evidence that much of that would not have happened regardless of the vote even taking place. 

 

Is it truly surprising that people eventually dislike having 'others' forced on their communities - largely within a short space of time, since most of it occurred after 1955? I am always astonished there is not more overt dislike, to be blunt.

 

 

 

 






Geektastic

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  #1580430 26-Jun-2016 09:49
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SJB:

 

Here's an interesting possibility

 

Hilary Clinton - US President

 

Theresa May - British Prime minister

 

Angela Merkel - German Chancellor

 

Helen Clarke - Head of the UN

 

Not a man to be seen anywhere.

 

 

 

 

Please no. Anything but that.






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