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DaveB
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  #1580492 26-Jun-2016 13:14
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And news just in ........... the UK Labour party starts to implode!

 

Also judging by reports on EuroNews, Merkel is getting offside with the EU due to her view for a softer approach in dealing with the Brexit issues.

 

Interesting times.


gzt

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  #1580494 26-Jun-2016 13:29
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Fred99:

 

 

This is disgusting. I hope some of this makes the national news and that politicians from all sides of the debate make a combined condemnation of this behaviour.

 
 
 
 


alexx
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  #1580496 26-Jun-2016 13:34
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SJB:

 

PhantomNVD:
eracode:

 

PhantomNVD: Mobile phone roaming? An 'issue'?😳

If NZ/AU can make a plan then UK/EU will do fine 👍

 

 

 

Im sure you're right but as I understand it there is a new arrangement coming into effect next year which the UK was part of but will now be outside of - they will now have to negotiate separately. All I was saying is that there will be thousand-and-one new matters to be attended to.

 



It will take at least two years for Article 50 to work out, and in the meantime they will be included in all current deals and laws. Only after they disengage might these deals be renegotiated, and most (that suit both parties) would surely just carry on with a 'copy' of the same contract with the U.K. Signature instead of EU one...

IF the EU survives as a unit itself, I think UK internal issues will be far bigger. If a surviving EU entices Scottland and "United Ireland" into it, the internal border controls and deals will be far harder to negotiate and police IMHO.

 

I think Scotland and NI would have a pretty difficult job getting into the EU. There are several countries (eg Spain) that have regions pushing for independence and those countries will block Scotland and NI to discourage their own regions.

 

I also think the EU itself is starting to realise it's too big to manage successfully so might put the lid on new arrivals for a long time. They have enough problems to sort out already.

 

 

Scotland and NI are not like Catalonia (for example). The UK consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Catalonia is a "region" which contains the second largest Spanish city, but has never been a country. So the EU could allow Scotland and NI to join without setting a precedent.

 

Scotland would appear to meet all the criteria for an EU country and if the UK leaves and Scotland joins, the number of member states stays the same. In NI it might take some time to see how things pan out when the Republic of Ireland / NI border becomes an EU border.

 

Regarding Article 50, this needs to be done as soon as possible.

 

The effects of dithering and delaying will create a lot of uncertainty in the UK and the EU and no one is investing when there is uncertainty. The EU needs to defend it's own economy and push the British government to move quickly on this. They can't permit any delaying tactics.

 

 





#include <standard.disclaimer>


gzt

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  #1580499 26-Jun-2016 13:46
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There is a parliamentary petition demanding a rerun of the referendum. There is a good possibility this may occur.


SJB

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  #1580501 26-Jun-2016 13:53
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alexx:

 

SJB:

 

PhantomNVD:
eracode:

 

PhantomNVD: Mobile phone roaming? An 'issue'?😳

If NZ/AU can make a plan then UK/EU will do fine 👍

 

 

 

Im sure you're right but as I understand it there is a new arrangement coming into effect next year which the UK was part of but will now be outside of - they will now have to negotiate separately. All I was saying is that there will be thousand-and-one new matters to be attended to.

 



It will take at least two years for Article 50 to work out, and in the meantime they will be included in all current deals and laws. Only after they disengage might these deals be renegotiated, and most (that suit both parties) would surely just carry on with a 'copy' of the same contract with the U.K. Signature instead of EU one...

IF the EU survives as a unit itself, I think UK internal issues will be far bigger. If a surviving EU entices Scottland and "United Ireland" into it, the internal border controls and deals will be far harder to negotiate and police IMHO.

 

I think Scotland and NI would have a pretty difficult job getting into the EU. There are several countries (eg Spain) that have regions pushing for independence and those countries will block Scotland and NI to discourage their own regions.

 

I also think the EU itself is starting to realise it's too big to manage successfully so might put the lid on new arrivals for a long time. They have enough problems to sort out already.

 

 

Scotland and NI are not like Catalonia (for example). The UK consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Catalonia is a "region" which contains the second largest Spanish city, but has never been a country. So the EU could allow Scotland and NI to join without setting a precedent.

 

Scotland would appear to meet all the criteria for an EU country and if the UK leaves and Scotland joins, the number of member states stays the same. In NI it might take some time to see how things pan out when the Republic of Ireland / NI border becomes an EU border.

 

Regarding Article 50, this needs to be done as soon as possible.

 

The effects of dithering and delaying will create a lot of uncertainty in the UK and the EU and no one is investing when there is uncertainty. The EU needs to defend it's own economy and push the British government to move quickly on this. They can't permit any delaying tactics.

 

 

 

 

I think Catalonians might use it as a precedent.

 

And could Scotland join the EU before becoming independent from the UK? I'm not sure that's possible is it?


gzt

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  #1580505 26-Jun-2016 14:19
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Yep. Scotland is now discussing a rerun of the independence referendum to join the EU.

SJB

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  #1580506 26-Jun-2016 14:21
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gzt: There is a parliamentary petition demanding a rerun of the referendum. There is a good possibility this may occur.

 

Zero chance according to everything I have read.

 

And if there was a rerun whoever lost would get a petition up demanding a rerun and so on and so on.........


 
 
 
 


Fred99
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  #1580507 26-Jun-2016 14:22
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The First Three Tragedies

 

A quick note on the first three tragedies of the British vote to leave the EU. I wrote this on Facebook in the small hours in the wake of the result and it went slightly viral so I thought I would share it here. 

 

Firstly, it was the working classes who voted for us to leave because they were economically disregarded and it is they who will suffer the most in the short term from the dearth of jobs and investment. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another one. 

 

Secondly, the younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles, and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of our predecessors. 

 

Thirdly and perhaps most significantly, we now live in a post-factual democracy. When the facts met the myths they were as useless as bullets bouncing off the bodies of aliens in a HG Wells novel. When Michael Gove said ‘the British people are sick of experts’ he was right. But can anybody tell me the last time a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism has lead to anything other than bigotry. 

 

 

 

 

source


PhantomNVD
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  #1580523 26-Jun-2016 15:10
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Fred99:

 



The First Three Tragedies

A quick note on the first three tragedies of the British vote to leave the EU. I wrote this on Facebook in the small hours in the wake of the result and it went slightly viral so I thought I would share it here. 


Firstly, it was the working classes who voted for us to leave because they were economically disregarded and it is they who will suffer the most in the short term from the dearth of jobs and investment. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another one. 


Secondly, the younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles, and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of our predecessors. 


Thirdly and perhaps most significantly, we now live in a post-factual democracy. When the facts met the myths they were as useless as bullets bouncing off the bodies of aliens in a HG Wells novel. When Michael Gove said ‘the British people are sick of experts’ he was right. But can anybody tell me the last time a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism has lead to anything other than bigotry. 



 


source



By a man who publishes under the non de plume "closetobeingright" ;)

While those things may have been lost, 'the young' may well be protected from innumerable possible other ills too. (Perhaps watch 'The Flash' explanations of the multiverse and see if you can find a way to prove either option as true, or 'more true' as likely both have some truth to them)

In the end, this is just another man's opinions, selected to be quoted by you as they express your ideas more eloquently than you feel you're able to... And thus no more 'factual' than anyone else' ideas and opinions here.

As only History will show for certain, this vote will surely have both positive and negative results, and your own world view will be all that decides which of these you think holds more weight.

For example, it may precipitate the eventual fall of the EU as we know it, and while you may think this is a negative, others may feel it's a positive, and both may well be right... Or wrong!

alexx
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  #1580525 26-Jun-2016 15:23
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gzt: There is a parliamentary petition demanding a rerun of the referendum. There is a good possibility this may occur.

 

I believe that the threshold where parliament must consider the referendum is 100,000 and the petition appears to have passed 2.5 million and is well on it's way to 3 million.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

 

Of course parliament can consider the petition and then reject it. However it's going to seem a bit odd if they reject the petition, but still don't invoke article 50.

 

The petition was actually started back in May 2016, so not a kneejerk reaction to the current result. The Leave campaign even supported the idea of a second referendum.

 

Nigel Farage (May 2016): "In a 52-48, referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way.”

 

But that was when the polls were going against them.

 

It appears there is a number of options for what happens next, including the British Parliament invoking article 50 or rolling back EU legislation without formally invoking article 50. How the EU reacts to that could be interesting.
https://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7badcbe2-3a0b-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7.html

 

Edit: might not work unless you go through google - search for: EU's Article 50 could become first Brexit stand-off - FT.com

 

At some point the UK might need to amend the Scotland Act 1998, section 29, perhaps without the consent of the Scottish parliament.
http://www.vox.com/2016/6/25/12031254/no-brexit-article-50

 

Which might trigger a second Scottish independence referendum, if it doesn't happen sooner.

 

Interesting times.





#include <standard.disclaimer>


Batman
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  #1580527 26-Jun-2016 15:27
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The most important thing following Brexit is who (and when) will become the next PM. He or She will answer all your questions in their actions (or inactions).

 

They currently are a rudderless ship - the situation is not in line with Cameron's ideas and he probably doesn't want to get much involved. Thing is, someone's got to do something, otherwise anarchy will reign.

 

Could this be the great depression of this century. Unless someone takes control of the rudder and take it to new heights or path of self destruction. Fast.

 

Maybe I should withdraw all my Kiwisaver. Oh, I can't.





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


SJB

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  #1580536 26-Jun-2016 15:42
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alexx:

 

gzt: There is a parliamentary petition demanding a rerun of the referendum. There is a good possibility this may occur.

 

I believe that the threshold where parliament must consider the referendum is 100,000 and the petition appears to have passed 2.5 million and is well on it's way to 3 million.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

 

Of course parliament can consider the petition and then reject it. However it's going to seem a bit odd if they reject the petition, but still don't invoke article 50.

 

The petition was actually started back in May 2016, so not a kneejerk reaction to the current result. The Leave campaign even supported the idea of a second referendum.

 

Nigel Farage (May 2016): "In a 52-48, referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way.”

 

But that was when the polls were going against them.

 

It appears there is a number of options for what happens next, including the British Parliament invoking article 50 or rolling back EU legislation without formally invoking article 50. How the EU reacts to that could be interesting.
https://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7badcbe2-3a0b-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7.html

 

Edit: might not work unless you go through google - search for: EU's Article 50 could become first Brexit stand-off - FT.com

 

At some point the UK might need to amend the Scotland Act 1998, section 29, perhaps without the consent of the Scottish parliament.
http://www.vox.com/2016/6/25/12031254/no-brexit-article-50

 

Which might trigger a second Scottish independence referendum, if it doesn't happen sooner.

 

Interesting times.

 

 

Interesting times indeed.

 

The 100,000 signatures triggers a debate in Parliament. However the petition would need retrospective legislation because it calls for a 60% majority if the turnout is less than 75% (which it was).

 

The petition will be ignored after a debate because it's irrelevant to the process now. Article 50 will be invoked, it's just a matter of when. I would think it will be earlier rather than later to ensure that the process can't be blocked.

 

There is a suggestion that the terms of the 'divorce' might be put to a further referendum but I can't see that happening either. If the terms are rejected by the voters what can the UK negotiators do? I can just hear 'Please EU negotiators our voters don't like the terms. Can you make them better for us?' followed by 'ha ha ha' from the other side.

 

Of course if 2 years after article 50 is invoked nothing has been agreed EU law just ceases to be applicable to the UK (or what's left of it). I have also read that one approach might be to enact all the current EU law as UK law and then gradually take the laws that are no longer relevant off the statute books. Sounds like a sensible approach to me. 


Fred99
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  #1580538 26-Jun-2016 15:50
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PhantomNVD: 

By a man who publishes under the non de plume "closetobeingright" ;)

 

 

 

He is a young journalist - and he's not publishing under a nom de plume as you claim, but under his own name which is Nicholas Barrett.

 

Please get your facts right before trying (and clearly failing) to discredit someone's opinion by making false claims.

 

I believe his use of the term "post-factual democracy" to be profound, accurate, and a dire warning.

 

 

 

 


PhantomNVD
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  #1580562 26-Jun-2016 16:39
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Fred99:

PhantomNVD: 

By a man who publishes under the non de plume "closetobeingright" ;)


 


He is a young journalist - and he's not publishing under a nom de plume as you claim, but under his own name which is Nicholas Barrett.


Please get your facts right before trying (and clearly failing) to discredit someone's opinion by making false claims.


I believe his use of the term "post-factual democracy" to be profound, accurate, and a dire warning.


 


 



Ok so his web blog is "closetobeingright".

Did you even read the rest of my post?

TLDR: history wil show whether this was a good choice, and your own bias/world view will select facts to support itself [as will mine]

freitasm
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  #1580565 26-Jun-2016 16:50
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Folks, from this point the discussion is on Brexit not on how each of you interprets each other's posts.

Enough direct jabs.




 

 

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