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DaveB
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  #1580569 26-Jun-2016 17:04
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Fred99:

 

 

 

 

The First Three Tragedies

 

A quick note on the first three tragedies of the British vote to leave the EU. I wrote this on Facebook in the small hours in the wake of the result and it went slightly viral so I thought I would share it here. 

 

Firstly, it was the working classes who voted for us to leave because they were economically disregarded and it is they who will suffer the most in the short term from the dearth of jobs and investment. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another one. 

 

Secondly, the younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles, and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of our predecessors. 

 

Thirdly and perhaps most significantly, we now live in a post-factual democracy. When the facts met the myths they were as useless as bullets bouncing off the bodies of aliens in a HG Wells novel. When Michael Gove said ‘the British people are sick of experts’ he was right. But can anybody tell me the last time a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism has lead to anything other than bigotry. 

 

 

 

 

source

 

 

I can understand his immediate thoughts. But it is a pity he chose to write them in the immediate "wee hours of the morning" as things were being announced, rather than give it some due consideration.

 

Firstly, I suspect it was a mixture of both middle and working class that voted the way they did. Well, lets be honest it was just over half of the voters.

 

Secondly, the right to live and work in 27 other countries? I'm quite sure if he has something of value to contribute he would be made quite welcome in many of those countries. He may just have to apply first for permission. If he is worried about his holidays, again I am quite sure there will be no problem there, provided he has a current passport. Employment and leisure travel was never a problem before the EU and I am quite sure it will continue.

 

Thirdly? I've got news for him. He has been living in a post factual "democracy" all of his young life. Well, it all depends on whether you can agree that the EU is democratic or not I guess.

 

He is obviously a good writer and very intelligent. His other essay on the growing popularity of destructive ideas was also quite interesting. It is however a little puzzling why he is not taking his own suggestion as per his closing comments:-

 

"Our aim should be to see the world as Camus would see it, a planet ruled by chance, indifference and the petty prejudices of an imperfect species. Like Sisyphus, taking ownership of his repetitive plight, we all have the ability to take pride in the world as it is and not just the worlds we wish we could live in".


DaveB
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  #1580571 26-Jun-2016 17:09
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freitasm: Folks, from this point the discussion is on Brexit not on how each of you interprets each other's posts.

Enough direct jabs.

 

OOops, posted above before I saw your post. Sorry. Not a jab.


 
 
 
 


Geektastic

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  #1580573 26-Jun-2016 17:14
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alexx:

SJB:


PhantomNVD:
eracode:


PhantomNVD: Mobile phone roaming? An 'issue'?😳

If NZ/AU can make a plan then UK/EU will do fine 👍


 


Im sure you're right but as I understand it there is a new arrangement coming into effect next year which the UK was part of but will now be outside of - they will now have to negotiate separately. All I was saying is that there will be thousand-and-one new matters to be attended to.




It will take at least two years for Article 50 to work out, and in the meantime they will be included in all current deals and laws. Only after they disengage might these deals be renegotiated, and most (that suit both parties) would surely just carry on with a 'copy' of the same contract with the U.K. Signature instead of EU one...

IF the EU survives as a unit itself, I think UK internal issues will be far bigger. If a surviving EU entices Scottland and "United Ireland" into it, the internal border controls and deals will be far harder to negotiate and police IMHO.


I think Scotland and NI would have a pretty difficult job getting into the EU. There are several countries (eg Spain) that have regions pushing for independence and those countries will block Scotland and NI to discourage their own regions.


I also think the EU itself is starting to realise it's too big to manage successfully so might put the lid on new arrivals for a long time. They have enough problems to sort out already.



Scotland and NI are not like Catalonia (for example). The UK consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Catalonia is a "region" which contains the second largest Spanish city, but has never been a country. So the EU could allow Scotland and NI to join without setting a precedent.


Scotland would appear to meet all the criteria for an EU country and if the UK leaves and Scotland joins, the number of member states stays the same. In NI it might take some time to see how things pan out when the Republic of Ireland / NI border becomes an EU border.


Regarding Article 50, this needs to be done as soon as possible.


The effects of dithering and delaying will create a lot of uncertainty in the UK and the EU and no one is investing when there is uncertainty. The EU needs to defend it's own economy and push the British government to move quickly on this. They can't permit any delaying tactics.


 



Technically, Wales was conquered and subsumed so it is a region.





dejadeadnz
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  #1580600 26-Jun-2016 17:34
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/boris-johnson-michael-gove-eu-liars

 

 

 

The following sums up the thoughts of many pro-remain people on Gove and Johnson rather well:

 

 

 

Johnson and Gove carried with them a second feature of unscrupulous journalism: the contempt for practical questions. Never has a revolution in Britain’s position in the world been advocated with such carelessness. The Leave campaign has no plan. And that is not just because there was a shamefully under-explored division between the bulk of Brexit voters who wanted the strong welfare state and solid communities of their youth and the leaders of the campaign who wanted Britain to become an offshore tax haven. Vote Leave did not know how to resolve difficulties with Scotland, Ireland, the refugee camp at Calais, and a thousand other problems, and did not want to know either.

 

It responded to all who predicted the chaos now engulfing us like an unscrupulous pundit who knows that his living depends on shutting up the experts who gainsay him. For why put the pundit on air, why pay him a penny, if experts can show that everything he says is windy nonsense? The worst journalists, editors and broadcasters know their audiences want entertainment, not expertise. If you doubt me, ask when you last saw panellists on Question Timewho knew what they were talking about.

 

Naturally, Michael Gove, former Times columnist, responded to the thousands of economists who warned he was taking an extraordinary risk with the sneer that will follow him to his grave: “People in this country have had enough of experts.” He’s being saying the same for years.

 

If sneers won’t work, the worst journalists lie. The Times fired Johnson for lying to its readers. Michael Howard fired Johnson for lying to him. When he’s cornered, Johnson accuses others of his own vices, as unscrupulous journalists always do. Those who question him are the true liars, he blusters, whose testimony cannot be trusted because, as he falsely said of the impeccably honest chairman of the UK Statistics Authority, they are “stooges”.


Linuxluver
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  #1580602 26-Jun-2016 17:44
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nathan: Well that is just scaremongering.

I hope the UK leaves the EU so they can renegotiate all those things you say

What is it that that the EU does exactly? 10,000 EU govt employees earn more than David Cameron the UK MP. imagine how many more earn less than him

And what do they all do??

£5B pounds of the EU budget a year is estimated as lost to fraud.

 

I'm late to this thread, but I'm always amused when someone assumes someone is doing nothing  because they, personally, know nothing about what a person or thing does.....whatever the thing might be. 

 

Our local body politicians and MPs also suffer the problems: people assuming they don't do anything because the people concerned haven't bothered - across years - to find out what they do.

 

It does grow tiresome....and it's often the same people (not talking about you, Nathan), over and over, saying the same sort of things....apparently unembarrassed by their serial public declarations of not knowing much about a lot.....and (wrongly) assuming there's nothing to know.

 

One could weep.  





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BarTender
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  #1580606 26-Jun-2016 17:55
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DaveB: Secondly, the right to live and work in 27 other countries? I'm quite sure if he has something of value to contribute he would be made quite welcome in many of those countries. He may just have to apply first for permission. If he is worried about his holidays, again I am quite sure there will be no problem there, provided he has a current passport. Employment and leisure travel was never a problem before the EU and I am quite sure it will continue.

 

As someone who in their early 20's lived in the Netherlands without an EU passport, I strongly disagree with this statement. Working in the EU without an EU passport was and still is a very challenging thing. With the UK out of the EU I suspect those opportunities will be lost. Unless England adopts the Norway approach, then reciprocal freedom of employment will apply. Which will in effect nullify one of the main arguments for leaving the EU.

 

Sure as a skilled migrant it's easier, but those wanting to work while doing their OE the bar is significantly higher & harder.

 

Anyone who doesn't think things are going to change in this respect has never attempted to work in the EU without an EU passport.





and


DarthKermit
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  #1580610 26-Jun-2016 18:12
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Linuxluver:

 

I'm late to this thread, but I'm always amused when someone assumes someone is doing nothing  because they, personally, know nothing about what a person or thing does.....whatever the thing might be. 

 

 

 

 

Another version of this is people who have never carried out a particular task or job assume that it's easy or basic to do. I've seen this attitude a lot through my life.


 
 
 
 


freitasm
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  #1580639 26-Jun-2016 18:39
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How can people be so stupid?

 

"Anger over 'Bregret' as Leave voters say they thought UK would stay in EU"

 

 

Remain voters are voicing their outrage amid claims by some people who voted for a Brexit that they regret their decision.

 

Electoral services workers have reported calls from people asking if they could change their decision after Friday’s result became clear, while some publicly admitted they intended to use a “protest vote” in the belief the UK was certain to remain in the European Union.

 

The anxiety – dubbed “Bregret” – emerged as the value of the pound tumbled and markets crashed, while somefelt betrayed by Nigel Farage’s admission that a Vote Leave poster pledging to spend millions of pounds supposedly given to the EU on the NHS was a “mistake”.

 

Mandy Suthi, a student who voted to leave, told ITV News she would tick the Remain box if she had a second chance and said her parents and siblings also regretted their choice.

 

“I would go back to the polling station and vote to stay, simply because this morning the reality is kicking in,” she said.

 

"We've left the EU, David Cameron's resigned, we're left with Boris, and Nigel has just basically given away that the NHS claim was a lie,” she wrote.

 

"I personally voted leave believing these lies, and I regret it more than anything, I feel genuinely robbed of my vote."

 

"I'm shocked that we voted for Leave, I didn't think that was going to happen. I didn't think my vote was going to matter too much because I thought we were just going to remain."

 

A blogger from Sheffield shared a message from a friend working in electoral services, claiming Brexit voters and pro-Remain members of the electorate who failed to turn out because they were confident of the win had been calling in.

 





 

 

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SJB

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  #1580662 26-Jun-2016 19:26
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freitasm:

 

How can people be so stupid?

 

"Anger over 'Bregret' as Leave voters say they thought UK would stay in EU"

 

 

Remain voters are voicing their outrage amid claims by some people who voted for a Brexit that they regret their decision.

 

Electoral services workers have reported calls from people asking if they could change their decision after Friday’s result became clear, while some publicly admitted they intended to use a “protest vote” in the belief the UK was certain to remain in the European Union.

 

The anxiety – dubbed “Bregret” – emerged as the value of the pound tumbled and markets crashed, while somefelt betrayed by Nigel Farage’s admission that a Vote Leave poster pledging to spend millions of pounds supposedly given to the EU on the NHS was a “mistake”.

 

Mandy Suthi, a student who voted to leave, told ITV News she would tick the Remain box if she had a second chance and said her parents and siblings also regretted their choice.

 

“I would go back to the polling station and vote to stay, simply because this morning the reality is kicking in,” she said.

 

"We've left the EU, David Cameron's resigned, we're left with Boris, and Nigel has just basically given away that the NHS claim was a lie,” she wrote.

 

"I personally voted leave believing these lies, and I regret it more than anything, I feel genuinely robbed of my vote."

 

"I'm shocked that we voted for Leave, I didn't think that was going to happen. I didn't think my vote was going to matter too much because I thought we were just going to remain."

 

A blogger from Sheffield shared a message from a friend working in electoral services, claiming Brexit voters and pro-Remain members of the electorate who failed to turn out because they were confident of the win had been calling in.

 

 

 

There is of course no actual proof she voted for brexit. And as for remain voters who didn't turn out, they are probably matched by leave voters who didn't turn out because they thought it was a lost cause.


gzt

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  #1580665 26-Jun-2016 19:32
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They are used to voting strategy in an FPP system where many votes are ineffective and the result is not representative.

 

 

In this vote, every vote counted. OMG! Why didn't they tell us?

 

 

Edit: In fairness it may also have something to do with UKIP and the Leave campaign telling voters to 'send a message' which is the same kind of psychology as a lot of protest FPP voting.

gzt

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  #1580669 26-Jun-2016 19:37
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SJB:

There is of course no actual proof she voted for brexit. And as for remain voters who didn't turn out, they are probably matched by leave voters who didn't turn out because they thought it was a lost cause.

 

There is also some number of eligible overseas voters who did not get voting papers, in time or at all.

 

 

I doubt enough to affect the vote but no doubt they will have to look.

Fred99
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  #1580673 26-Jun-2016 19:53
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The worst possible result was always going to be a close result.  I note that some are comparing this referendum to a general election. However with a close result in a general election there's compromise by way of making concessions for coalition, and/or the moderating influence against more extreme views by pragmatism - there probably will be by-elections and/or crossing of the house, and anyway if seen to be acting against public opinion, it doesn't bode well for future election results.   


DaveB
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  #1580676 26-Jun-2016 19:57
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BarTender:

 

DaveB: Secondly, the right to live and work in 27 other countries? I'm quite sure if he has something of value to contribute he would be made quite welcome in many of those countries. He may just have to apply first for permission. If he is worried about his holidays, again I am quite sure there will be no problem there, provided he has a current passport. Employment and leisure travel was never a problem before the EU and I am quite sure it will continue.

 

As someone who in their early 20's lived in the Netherlands without an EU passport, I strongly disagree with this statement. Working in the EU without an EU passport was and still is a very challenging thing. With the UK out of the EU I suspect those opportunities will be lost. Unless England adopts the Norway approach, then reciprocal freedom of employment will apply. Which will in effect nullify one of the main arguments for leaving the EU.

 

Sure as a skilled migrant it's easier, but those wanting to work while doing their OE the bar is significantly higher & harder.

 

Anyone who doesn't think things are going to change in this respect has never attempted to work in the EU without an EU passport.

 

 

You could well be right. A friends daughter is working in France at the moment in a senior secretarial role. I know she was on a Kiwi Passport and had to apply, which I believe took about 4 to 6 weeks, possibly longer. My god-daughter is going through the same process to work in the UK at this moment.

 

I agree, if there are skills it will be easier but opportunities may well be limited for casual work.

 

The whole of Europe has a massive travel industry. I doubt they would make that difficult though. Too much tourism $$$ to lose. 


Rikkitic
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  #1580678 26-Jun-2016 20:00
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It is fascinating to see how this plays out. Is it possible that Parliament could legislate to invalidate the result in view of the reactions? Would they even have to, since the referendum wasn't binding? With enough public support, could they not say it was in the national interest to ignore the result or to hold a second vote?

 

I suspect at least some who voted to leave probably thought they were just casting a protest vote against the government. That seems to be indicated by some of the responses. How could they be so stupid, indeed?

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


mattwnz
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  #1580691 26-Jun-2016 20:25
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Rikkitic:

It is fascinating to see how this plays out. Is it possible that Parliament could legislate to invalidate the result in view of the reactions? Would they even have to, since the referendum wasn't binding? With enough public support, could they not say it was in the national interest to ignore the result or to hold a second vote?


I suspect at least some who voted to leave probably thought they were just casting a protest vote against the government. That seems to be indicated by some of the responses. How could they be so stupid, indeed?


 



With the pm resigning that would be unlikely to happen. They will just have to live with it. Maybe they can negotiate with them and get a better deal.

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