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Fred99
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  #1581696 28-Jun-2016 08:59
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shk292:

 

Fred99:

 

Perhaps the lesson in this is the folly of referendums in post-factual democracies.

 

 

I don't think so.  I don't even know what you mean by "post-factual democracy" and will file that in "words and phrases never to use unless I want to appear pretentious" along with "neoliberal".

 

The British people decided on a democratic process to decide a very important constitutional matter.  A good proportion of them voted on it.  A majority of those who voted want to walk back from being controlled by an undemocratic multinational structure.  Now we just have to hope that a good way can be found to turn that democratic will into a practical solution.

 

 

 

 

It simply means that voters made decisions based on lies.  I guess some very cynical people trying to justify that it got the result they always wanted will claim "but that's how it always works", as politicians have always been rather good at presenting facts in a manner that suits their agenda, but when they tell blatant lies, then media have played their part in uncovering the lies.  Not any more.

 

The media is now more partisan than it's ever been - in a shrinking market for advertising then they're not going to upset the demographic that they're targeting by telling people things that they don't want to hear.  Don't kid yourself that I'm "making this up" You see exactly the same divisions here in NZ on TV "news and current affairs", petitions to sack Hosking on one side, protests to reinstate Campbell on the other.

 

Britain will be better off post Brexit?  How's that looking?  Was that ever credible - or a pack of lies.  How is the presidential selection process going on in the USA?  What are the "issues" driving opinion?  Are they "real" or a pack of lies? 30,000 Americans a year dying at the muzzle end of guns, and Islam is America's greatest threat, Mexicans are taking away jobs, and Obamacare means that government is going to start euthanising old people.

 

You can choose not to use the term, I think it's succinct and not a made-up deliberate insult like "bankster" and will continue to use it.  If you think that's pretentious of me - that's your problem.


tdgeek
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  #1581706 28-Jun-2016 09:14
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tdgeek:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

 

 

 post-factual democracies 

 

It simply means that voters made decisions based on lies.  I guess some very cynical people trying to justify that it got the result they always wanted will claim "but that's how it always works", as politicians have always been rather good at presenting facts in a manner that suits their agenda, but when they tell blatant lies, then media have played their part in uncovering the lies.  Not any more.

 

The media is now more partisan than it's ever been - in a shrinking market for advertising then they're not going to upset the demographic that they're targeting by telling people things that they don't want to hear.  Don't kid yourself that I'm "making this up" You see exactly the same divisions here in NZ on TV "news and current affairs", petitions to sack Hosking on one side, protests to reinstate Campbell on the other.

 

Britain will be better off post Brexit?  How's that looking?  Was that ever credible - or a pack of lies.  How is the presidential selection process going on in the USA?  What are the "issues" driving opinion?  Are they "real" or a pack of lies? 30,000 Americans a year dying at the muzzle end of guns, and Islam is America's greatest threat, Mexicans are taking away jobs, and Obamacare means that government is going to start euthanising old people.

 

You can choose not to use the term, I think it's succinct and not a made-up deliberate insult like "bankster" and will continue to use it.  If you think that's pretentious of me - that's your problem.

 

 

Dont the lies go both ways?

 


 
 
 
 


Fred99
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  #1581707 28-Jun-2016 09:15
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tdgeek:

 

Here s another take from a leave position

 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/81520933/brexit-britain-will-always-be-part-of-europe--boris-johnson

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's confirming that Brexiters like Boris either really didn't have a clue, or did have a clue but decided to lie through their teeth for their own benefit by backing and stoking the fire.

 

More on Boris etc here: https://next.ft.com/content/051c495a-3c85-11e6-8716-a4a71e8140b0

 

 

Having achieved their goal of a Brexit, the leaders of the Leave campaign suddenly went quiet. Boris Johnson spent Saturday playing cricket. Dan Hannan, a Conservative MEP and relentless user of Twitter to advance the case for Brexit, declared he was quitting the social media site for a month.

 

“David Cameron should have been thinking about this,” said one Conservative MP, angry at what he saw as the prime minister’s failure to provide leadership after the vote. Another Tory Brexiter admitted to Sky News: “There is no plan.”

 

In Downing Street there is grim amusement at this turn of events, compounded by the sight of “liberal Leavers”, Conservatives who attached themselves to a populist campaign, trying to disown it after the event.

 

Mr Hannan said Britain might still allow free movement of labour to retain access to the single market; Iain Duncan Smith, the former minister, disavowed a promise to divert an alleged £350m a week EU budget contribution to the NHS.

 


Fred99
11128 posts

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  #1581714 28-Jun-2016 09:31
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tdgeek:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

 

 

 post-factual democracies 

 

It simply means that voters made decisions based on lies.  I guess some very cynical people trying to justify that it got the result they always wanted will claim "but that's how it always works", as politicians have always been rather good at presenting facts in a manner that suits their agenda, but when they tell blatant lies, then media have played their part in uncovering the lies.  Not any more.

 

The media is now more partisan than it's ever been - in a shrinking market for advertising then they're not going to upset the demographic that they're targeting by telling people things that they don't want to hear.  Don't kid yourself that I'm "making this up" You see exactly the same divisions here in NZ on TV "news and current affairs", petitions to sack Hosking on one side, protests to reinstate Campbell on the other.

 

Britain will be better off post Brexit?  How's that looking?  Was that ever credible - or a pack of lies.  How is the presidential selection process going on in the USA?  What are the "issues" driving opinion?  Are they "real" or a pack of lies? 30,000 Americans a year dying at the muzzle end of guns, and Islam is America's greatest threat, Mexicans are taking away jobs, and Obamacare means that government is going to start euthanising old people.

 

You can choose not to use the term, I think it's succinct and not a made-up deliberate insult like "bankster" and will continue to use it.  If you think that's pretentious of me - that's your problem.

 

 

Dont the lies go both ways?

 

 

 

 

I think in this case the truth is that Britain's (hence the "City's") credit rating has been downgraded, trading of shares in Barclays and RBS were suspended as they were tanking, tourism and property related shares have tanked, the pound has tanked, and reality is starting to bite that change to the UK economy is looking negative, serious, and permanent.  YMMV on how you interpret this.

 

It's very ironic that Brexit campaign leaders are now saying that they want to negotiate a deal which preserves freedom of movement across borders.

 

As for London as a financial centre, then they are big losers.  Continuing to be able to trade within the EU banking sector "passporting" is over, and it's very unlikely that the Euros would want London to remain as a financial hub.  The banking sector already announced before the Brexit vote that that they'd shift part of their operations out of London and to European cities.  

 

Where's the promised upside?  Where's the GBP 350 million a week for the NHS?


shk292
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  #1581715 28-Jun-2016 09:32
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tdgeek:

 

Dont the lies go both ways?

 

 

Exactly.  And there is a different between a lie and a prediction, and a lie and a belief which another person doesn't believe in.  But grouping everything you disagree in as "lies" is a really convenient way to denigrate the opinions and values of others while appearing superficially to take the moral high ground.

 

To me, the biggest lie in this debate was that voting for remain is voting for the status quo.  That is factually incorrect because the EU has a stated agenda to effect ever closer union.

 

Contrast this to "Britain will be better outside the EU".  It's a prediction, an opinion, a belief - but not a lie.  It may or may not be correct - we'll only know in several years' time - but it's still not a lie.  But calling it a lie is a really convenient way to appear superior and condescending to those whose beliefs and worth you think are inferior to your own


Fred99
11128 posts

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  #1581716 28-Jun-2016 09:36
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shk292:

 

tdgeek:

 

Dont the lies go both ways?

 

 

Exactly.  And there is a different between a lie and a prediction, and a lie and a belief which another person doesn't believe in.  But grouping everything you disagree in as "lies" is a really convenient way to denigrate the opinions and values of others while appearing superficially to take the moral high ground.

 

To me, the biggest lie in this debate was that voting for remain is voting for the status quo.  That is factually incorrect because the EU has a stated agenda to effect ever closer union.

 

Contrast this to "Britain will be better outside the EU".  It's a prediction, an opinion, a belief - but not a lie.  It may or may not be correct - we'll only know in several years' time - but it's still not a lie.  But calling it a lie is a really convenient way to appear superior and condescending to those whose beliefs and worth you think are inferior to your own

 

 

 

 

They argued that what is happening on financial markets would not happen.
They promised diversion of funds from EU budget to NHS would happen.
They promised to close borders - but are now backtracking.


shk292
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  #1581720 28-Jun-2016 09:48
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Fred99:

 

 

 

They argued that what is happening on financial markets would not happen.
They promised diversion of funds from EU budget to NHS would happen.
They promised to close borders - but are now backtracking.

 

 

1. - Perhaps you could read the bit where I explain the difference between a lie and a prediction

 

2. - It's a bit early don't you think?  The UK are (probably, I haven't checked) still committed to paying their EU contributions, presumably until they actually leave in 2 years time?  Then there would be scope to divert funding elsewhere

 

3 - Nobody promised to close borders.  What Brexit does is allow control over borders.  It's not the same thing.  Do you think NZ should open its borders to anyone in the TPPA?


 
 
 
 


Geektastic

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  #1581730 28-Jun-2016 10:04
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nakedmolerat:

 

Geektastic:

 

As I said some time ago, lots of people alive today do not have a memory of Britain outside the EU - they will have a hard time envisioning that future.

 

 

Since most of the Brexit supporters are from the older generation, it kinda fits with your statement there. It looks like they are still living in their past glory (this is also the impression I got from the callers on the talkback).

 

I talked to a couple of mates today from the UK (both are less than 30). They seemed to think that the older generation and those who do not have kids should not vote in this referendum since they have no stake of what lies in the future. It seems harsh but I wonder if they actually raised a very good point there.

 

The younger generation are so used to multiculturalism, easy movement between european countries etc. Naturally, they tend to look at what is ahead of them rather than what is in the past (history books).

 

 

 

I personally don't have stake in Brexit. It will only affect me if UK disintegrate and we need to have another referendum for NZ flag! I hope Fire The Lazar will make it to the final -boo yah!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The younger generation have no experience on which to base their decisions, no money in the system and usually worse educations due to modern reduction of standards.

 

 

 

Also, nothing stopped them getting their noses out of social media or their X Boxes and going to vote except their own laziness and apathy.






Fred99
11128 posts

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  #1581738 28-Jun-2016 10:16
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shk292:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

They argued that what is happening on financial markets would not happen.
They promised diversion of funds from EU budget to NHS would happen.
They promised to close borders - but are now backtracking.

 

 

1. - Perhaps you could read the bit where I explain the difference between a lie and a prediction

 

2. - It's a bit early don't you think?  The UK are (probably, I haven't checked) still committed to paying their EU contributions, presumably until they actually leave in 2 years time?  Then there would be scope to divert funding elsewhere

 

3 - Nobody promised to close borders.  What Brexit does is allow control over borders.  It's not the same thing.  Do you think NZ should open its borders to anyone in the TPPA?

 

 

 

 

They had expert advice which was ignored in favour of selling a populist message that they knew wasn't even close to being true.

 

As far as NZ opening borders to trading partners in ie TPPA, then all I'll say on that is that in a perfect world without division and hatred, then all borders would be open.  That should be a goal - not creating division.  Sorry if that's too idealistic - but it's the truth.


Geektastic

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  #1581740 28-Jun-2016 10:21
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Interesting comments from a number of European papers this week, including this:

 

 

 

"Die Welt's publisher, Stefan Aust, has no doubt that the vote was a "come-uppance for Brussels, whose policies are ever more impenetrable, and for the high-handedness of a bureaucracy whose decision-making process are increasingly removed from the public".
He thinks Britain may have done the EU a favour in revealing the "great project to have been a great illusion, a colourful soap bubble" and in forcing it to decide on whether to accept differences among member-states rather than "fake a consensus"."






SJB

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  #1581767 28-Jun-2016 10:32
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Fred99:

 

I think in this case the truth is that Britain's (hence the "City's") credit rating has been downgraded, trading of shares in Barclays and RBS were suspended as they were tanking, tourism and property related shares have tanked, the pound has tanked, and reality is starting to bite that change to the UK economy is looking negative, serious, and permanent.  YMMV on how you interpret this.

 

It's very ironic that Brexit campaign leaders are now saying that they want to negotiate a deal which preserves freedom of movement across borders.

 

As for London as a financial centre, then they are big losers.  Continuing to be able to trade within the EU banking sector "passporting" is over, and it's very unlikely that the Euros would want London to remain as a financial hub.  The banking sector already announced before the Brexit vote that that they'd shift part of their operations out of London and to European cities.  

 

Where's the promised upside?  Where's the GBP 350 million a week for the NHS?

 

 

It's far too early for all the doom and gloom. It's only been 2 working days since the result.

 

The hysterical (and I don't mean funny) response from the losing side seems to be par for the course since 'social media' arrived on the scene. I know if the vote had gone the other way I would have said 'oh well maybe another chance in a few years'. I certainly wouldn't have thrown my toys out of the pram like it seems a lot of remain voters have. Of course a lot of the remain voters still have toys..... 


Fred99
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  #1581776 28-Jun-2016 10:49
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SJB:

 

I know if the vote had gone the other way I would have said 'oh well maybe another chance in a few years'. I certainly wouldn't have thrown my toys out of the pram like it seems a lot of remain voters have. Of course a lot of the remain voters still have toys..... 

 

 

 

 

Oh really?  I think you and a couple of others have been rather vocal in shouting down any suggestion that the voters could have got it wrong and that there could or should be another vote or referendum on the issue, yet here you are saying that if the vote was the other way around then your attitude would have been 'oh well maybe another chance in a few years'.

 

Throwing one's toys out of the cot perfectly describes the brexit movement.


RUKI
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  #1581785 28-Jun-2016 11:03
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Read recently in RUNET: "EU has now free space = 1GB" :-)


SJB

SJB
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  #1581801 28-Jun-2016 11:16
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Fred99:

 

Oh really?  I think you and a couple of others have been rather vocal in shouting down any suggestion that the voters could have got it wrong and that there could or should be another vote or referendum on the issue, yet here you are saying that if the vote was the other way around then your attitude would have been 'oh well maybe another chance in a few years'.

 

 

The vote was the one I wanted obviously but there is no right or wrong result as far as the whole group people who voted is concerned. It's just the result.

 

No I don't think there should be another referendum because surely that sets a dangerous precedent. When say a general election goes the 'wrong' way and it's close does that mean the losers are entitled to a rerun? 


Fred99
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  #1581807 28-Jun-2016 11:40
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SJB:

 

Fred99:

 

Oh really?  I think you and a couple of others have been rather vocal in shouting down any suggestion that the voters could have got it wrong and that there could or should be another vote or referendum on the issue, yet here you are saying that if the vote was the other way around then your attitude would have been 'oh well maybe another chance in a few years'.

 

 

The vote was the one I wanted obviously but there is no right or wrong result as far as the whole group people who voted is concerned. It's just the result.

 

No I don't think there should be another referendum because surely that sets a dangerous precedent. When say a general election goes the 'wrong' way and it's close does that mean the losers are entitled to a rerun? 

 

 

 

 

But you've said you would have supported another referendum if the vote had gone the other way.

 

I'm not discussing this with you any more.  You lost - by being sprung for hypocrisy - it's only a "dangerous precedent" when it suits you.

 

 


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