Our pitiful judicial system

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Glurp
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Reply # 1584288 1-Jul-2016 17:51

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OP is just the same old bla bla. It has all been tried before and failed miserably. Just look at America. Those who howl for harsher punishments really just want retribution. That may give them some satisfaction but it doesn't change anything.

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Geektastic

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Reply # 1584300 1-Jul-2016 18:08

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I agree that sentencing seems remarkably slack.

You watch things like Police 10-7 and, when the police are not just providing free taxi services for drunks and actually get someone doing something wrong, the sentences seem almost ludicrously lenient. This is especially true for drink driving - some tard blows 3 times the limit and gets fined a few hundred dollars and banned for a few months, which he will probably ignore.

Sentences for more serious offences are even sillier sometimes.

Some kind of Devil's Island style penal colony for the worst ones might be a good idea: we have some thoroughly unpleasant sub antarctic islands presently unoccupied...!

sen8or

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Reply # 1584360 1-Jul-2016 19:34

i don't believe it has been all tried before. I'm not advocating for lock up the prisoner and throw away the key for any offence, simply that the thought of improsonment has to be a far bigger deterrent than it already is.

On some mystery planet where it's all rainbows and skittles, I'm sure that people will only stray once and then be pillars of society, but as in the third article I linked, at least 50 convictions? That is OK by society, really? You are happy for your tax money to be put towards feeding and housing these 2? Should we just try and teach them some life skills, like cooking and cleaning? People like that who show such little regard for living by societies standards should simply be removed, permanently.

Unfortunately those islands aren't unoccupied, penguins and seabirds, and if we disturb them, the greens will attack.

Lias

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Reply # 1584379 1-Jul-2016 20:20

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As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to those specific crimes, it's just like shooting a rabid dog. A dog goes rabid, or attacks stock/people we don't even think about putting it down for the good of society. Murderers, rapists, and child abuses should be the same.

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Linuxluver

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Reply # 1584384 1-Jul-2016 20:38

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old3eyes:

So what do you want, Instant fines for everything including murder?? That would keep the prison population down..

Intervention long before prison.

Get alongside kids with problems - not a meeting a week with an over-worked counselor - REALLY alongside. Maybe out of the family environment. Maybe in a place that is secure. But not where the offenders outnumber those who run the place. A many-to-one approach with respect to the offender. That may sound like a lot of trouble.....and it does take some commitment....but in the long run you'd stand a better chance of repairing a damaged life than you do by locking them up down a wing with the Mongrel Mob.

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Linuxluver

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Reply # 1584386 1-Jul-2016 20:41

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Rikkitic:

OP is just the same old bla bla. It has all been tried before and failed miserably. Just look at America. Those who howl for harsher punishments really just want retribution. That may give them some satisfaction but it doesn't change anything.

The "hard time" mantra - if acted on - delivers hardened crims. If you subject them to violence inside they learn how to be violent...and to do so without hesitation or scruple.

I've watched gang members show each other how to break arms, legs and necks in a second. They practice in the yards outside in their free time. Of course they are "Just playing, boss".

Yeah......right.

NZ's gangs would have a hard time operating is they weren't based on close bonds of loyalty and discipline - to the gang - forged in jail.

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Linuxluver

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Reply # 1584389 1-Jul-2016 20:45

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Geektastic:

I agree that sentencing seems remarkably slack.

You watch things like Police 10-7 and, when the police are not just providing free taxi services for drunks and actually get someone doing something wrong, the sentences seem almost ludicrously lenient. This is especially true for drink driving - some tard blows 3 times the limit and gets fined a few hundred dollars and banned for a few months, which he will probably ignore.

Sentences for more serious offences are even sillier sometimes.

Some kind of Devil's Island style penal colony for the worst ones might be a good idea: we have some thoroughly unpleasant sub antarctic islands presently unoccupied...!

So you're more harsh and the guy loses his job, his girlfriend / wife....in trouble with his family.....isolated with a drinking problem. Maybe in jail. Not violent....just suffering an addiction. The police are right to stop him driving and punish with a fine. Re-offending for drink driving will end up in jail....eventually. But that doesn't fix anything. The guy's life is still wrecked. Now it just costs the taxpayer $65,000 / year to keep each person in prison.

Better to spend a lot less a lot earlier and deal with the actual problem.

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Linuxluver

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Reply # 1584391 1-Jul-2016 20:48

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Lias:

As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to those specific crimes, it's just like shooting a rabid dog. A dog goes rabid, or attacks stock/people we don't even think about putting it down for the good of society. Murderers, rapists, and child abuses should be the same.

The problem is we too often get it wrong as to who did what.

Teina Pora is a good example. By your rules he would have been killed years ago for murdering Susan Burdette.

Except....he didn't do it.

We don't have the death penalty because we're trying to teach everyone - criminal or not - that killing is wrong.

That can't stand up if the state says it's OK for the state to kill....but not you. Some people would take a 'libertarian' approach to the ultimate sanction and assert their 'personal sovereignty'. Or they might just say God or Allah or <deity> says it was OK.

harder for them to do if all killing of born humans by other humans is illegal.

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sir1963

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Reply # 1584808 2-Jul-2016 19:54

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So, 2 places failed to do due diligence when employing people, and then if they knew they were high risk failed to implement systems around those people to prevent any inappropriate behaviour.

I am all for a referendum, those that want longer sentences can then put their money where their mouth is an pay extra taxes.

Or do you think that the government can forcibly take more money of everyone else to cover your need for vengeance ?

The US penal system is far more punitive than the NZ one, they have far harsher prisons and sentences, they have the death penalty, police shoot and kill thousands of citizens a year and they have been doing this for generations, guess what, their crime rates are much higher then NZs.

If brutality worked, the US would have lower rates of crime than NZ.

sir1963

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Reply # 1584810 2-Jul-2016 19:58

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Linuxluver:

Geektastic:

I agree that sentencing seems remarkably slack.

You watch things like Police 10-7 and, when the police are not just providing free taxi services for drunks and actually get someone doing something wrong, the sentences seem almost ludicrously lenient. This is especially true for drink driving - some tard blows 3 times the limit and gets fined a few hundred dollars and banned for a few months, which he will probably ignore.

Sentences for more serious offences are even sillier sometimes.

Some kind of Devil's Island style penal colony for the worst ones might be a good idea: we have some thoroughly unpleasant sub antarctic islands presently unoccupied...!

So you're more harsh and the guy loses his job, his girlfriend / wife....in trouble with his family.....isolated with a drinking problem. Maybe in jail. Not violent....just suffering an addiction. The police are right to stop him driving and punish with a fine. Re-offending for drink driving will end up in jail....eventually. But that doesn't fix anything. The guy's life is still wrecked. Now it just costs the taxpayer $65,000 / year to keep each person in prison.

Better to spend a lot less a lot earlier and deal with the actual problem.

Its about 90,000 a year per prisoner these days.

Its funny how we punish people on a benefit, take money off them for all sorts of reasons, but then we are all for paying 3 times the amount to put them in prison.

sir1963

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Reply # 1584814 2-Jul-2016 20:03

sen8or: i don't believe it has been all tried before. I'm not advocating for lock up the prisoner and throw away the key for any offence, simply that the thought of improsonment has to be a far bigger deterrent than it already is.

On some mystery planet where it's all rainbows and skittles, I'm sure that people will only stray once and then be pillars of society, but as in the third article I linked, at least 50 convictions? That is OK by society, really? You are happy for your tax money to be put towards feeding and housing these 2? Should we just try and teach them some life skills, like cooking and cleaning? People like that who show such little regard for living by societies standards should simply be removed, permanently.

Unfortunately those islands aren't unoccupied, penguins and seabirds, and if we disturb them, the greens will attack.

Brutality has been tried before.

Death penalty for example, why do the countries that have it have more crime than NZ ?

dejadeadnz

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Reply # 1584846 2-Jul-2016 20:33

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Lias:

As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to those specific crimes, it's just like shooting a rabid dog. A dog goes rabid, or attacks stock/people we don't even think about putting it down for the good of society. Murderers, rapists, and child abuses should be the same.

As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to people who advocate ideas that are blatantly contrary to the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and numerous other international human rights instruments to which NZ has freely and solemnly agreed to follow, I wonder whether said person (1) went to school, and/or (2) is so contemptuous of his/her own country that the position of one's country facing international opprobrium or worse for barbarity doesn't bother him/her, and/or (3) has bothered to engage brain before speaking or writing.

Geektastic

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Reply # 1584916 2-Jul-2016 23:19

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dejadeadnz:

Lias:

As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to those specific crimes, it's just like shooting a rabid dog. A dog goes rabid, or attacks stock/people we don't even think about putting it down for the good of society. Murderers, rapists, and child abuses should be the same.

As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to people who advocate ideas that are blatantly contrary to the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and numerous other international human rights instruments to which NZ has freely and solemnly agreed to follow, I wonder whether said person (1) went to school, and/or (2) is so contemptuous of his/her own country that the position of one's country facing international opprobrium or worse for barbarity doesn't bother him/her, and/or (3) has bothered to engage brain before speaking or writing.

I worry about the politicians who enact laws to protect such people more than that if I am honest. I rather like the medieval concept of 'outlaw' - that by committing certain crimes, you place yourself outside the protection of the law.

Dratsab

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Reply # 1584934 3-Jul-2016 00:28

sir1963: The US penal system is far more punitive than the NZ one, they have far harsher prisons and sentences, they have the death penalty, police shoot and kill thousands of citizens a year and they have been doing this for generations, guess what, their crime rates are much higher then NZ's.

Civilians in the US shoot and kill thousands of each other every year, Police don't. Other than that, you're correct.

blakamin

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Reply # 1584938 3-Jul-2016 00:44

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Dratsab:
Civilians in the US shoot and kill thousands of each other every year, Police don't.

Depends on where you look...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2016/ And it's only July... :/

http://killedbypolice.net/

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