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  Reply # 1586852 5-Jul-2016 23:53
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Kiwifruta:
blakamin:

 

Kiwifruta:  
Shame his parents didn't apply for Australian citizenship for him when he was a child. He may have been born and spent the first 4 years of his life here, but he was definitely raised mostly in Australia, the next 39 years of his life was in Australia. Is his behaviour an Australian created problem?


 

 

 

SMH... By what? His "parents"? If you've got sh*t for parents, you're going to have a sh*t upbringing no matter where you live.

 

 

 

You keep blaming someone else though, if it makes you feel your little slice of the world is perfect.

 



Agreed about parents and upbringing. But isn't that an assumption that it was his parents' poor parenting that caused his behavioural issues? Crumbs, I know kids with great parents, but the kids have still gone off the rails and hang out with the wrong crowd.

I never said I feel my little slice of the world is perfect. Stop the assumptions. I have lived in Australia too, it's a great place.

Who did I blame? My last line was a question. I wonder about some of these NZers being sent back to NZ, how many of their behavioural issues are NZ created and how many Australia created? I question why people with Australian created behavioural issues are sent back to NZ. I'm not implying that his behavioural issues are Australian caused, but I am asking if they are Australian caused. 39 years vs 4 years as a pre-schooler, to me it's the white elephant in the room. The question needs to be asked.


 

 

 

Make your mind up... They are sent back because they're not "australian created" at all. His behaviour is a product of being him, his parents, and who he hung around with. Nutters that do that sort of sh*t do it no matter where they are. He just happens to be a NZ citizen.

If I hung around with effwits longer than I did, and had "behavioural issues", I probably would've turned out the same way. Lucky I was taught right from wrong at a very young age, don't have complete drop-kick parents (rich ones can be sh*t too), and have nothing to prove to effwits, no matter where I live.


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  Reply # 1586861 6-Jul-2016 06:15
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Rikkitic:

 

surfisup1000:

 

 

 

Having lived in Scandinavia I must disagree with respect to your comments on their prison system.   They have very homogeneous societies (although this is now changing) with strong family structures and high societal pressure to conform. 

 

Quite unlike New Zealand.  I'm pretty sure the Scandinavian rehabilitation / prison system would fail in NZ. 

 

 We simply do not have the same support structures once inmates are released. And, you can't build these with money.   These are things like family values, belonging to a group where people expect you to change, etc. ...  The underclass in NZ is of sufficient size where there is no pressure to change from anyone in your daily contact list. 

 

 

 

That is a good point but even if it is true I still don't believe we can solve anything in a meaningful way by building more prisons. As a society we have to decide either to make the necessary investment to prevent people from turning to crime in the first place, or we have to accept living in gated communities. 

 

 

 

 

The comment "as a society" doesn't work, these people choose to live outside of society on one hand but want the perk on the other. Maybe more prisons are not the answer but neither is allowing people the perks of society without having to contribute.


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  Reply # 1586863 6-Jul-2016 06:20
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frankv:

 

MikeAqua:

 

Then there are people who exhibit a syndrome of persistent antisocial/violent behaviour from an early age.  At age 3 they are already identifiable and their behaviour consistently gets worse as they get older.  About 5 - 10% of males. 

 

So, if we're going to protect society from this (and therefore eliminate 90% of crime) we need to jail 5-10% of the male population. For round numbers, let's say that's 2.5% of the population. Let's also exclude under-18s (even though we can predict that they're going to be bad), say 1/3, so we need to permanently jail 1.6% of the population, i.e. about 75,000 people. For comparison, the current prison population is about 11,000, as per the TV news last night. (Wikipedia says we had an incarceration rate of 202/100K as of 2013, which only adds up to 8888 prisoners, but I think rates are increasing.) So we're talking about building and running 7 times as many prisons as now. At 7 times the cost, of course. At $90,000/prisoner/year, that's $6.6B/year.

 

Treasury estimated the total cost of crime at $9.1B in 2004, so it's perhaps $20B this year? (fraud alone was $9.4B in 2014). Jailing the habitually bad for their entire lives will save 90% -- i.e. $18B dollars. A 3:1 ROI.

 

Sounds good to me. Hang on while I go and buy some Serco shares.

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is actually likely to be some efficiencies from increasing the prison population as well so the cost may drop considerably.

 

I will pay extra tax for this as the increased safety and peace of mind is worth it.


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  Reply # 1586864 6-Jul-2016 06:32
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blakamin:

 

Kiwifruta:
blakamin:

 

Kiwifruta:  
Shame his parents didn't apply for Australian citizenship for him when he was a child. He may have been born and spent the first 4 years of his life here, but he was definitely raised mostly in Australia, the next 39 years of his life was in Australia. Is his behaviour an Australian created problem?


 

 

 

SMH... By what? His "parents"? If you've got sh*t for parents, you're going to have a sh*t upbringing no matter where you live.

 

 

 

You keep blaming someone else though, if it makes you feel your little slice of the world is perfect.

 



Agreed about parents and upbringing. But isn't that an assumption that it was his parents' poor parenting that caused his behavioural issues? Crumbs, I know kids with great parents, but the kids have still gone off the rails and hang out with the wrong crowd.

I never said I feel my little slice of the world is perfect. Stop the assumptions. I have lived in Australia too, it's a great place.

Who did I blame? My last line was a question. I wonder about some of these NZers being sent back to NZ, how many of their behavioural issues are NZ created and how many Australia created? I question why people with Australian created behavioural issues are sent back to NZ. I'm not implying that his behavioural issues are Australian caused, but I am asking if they are Australian caused. 39 years vs 4 years as a pre-schooler, to me it's the white elephant in the room. The question needs to be asked.


 

 

 

Make your mind up... They are sent back because they're not "australian created" at all. His behaviour is a product of being him, his parents, and who he hung around with. Nutters that do that sort of sh*t do it no matter where they are. He just happens to be a NZ citizen.

If I hung around with effwits longer than I did, and had "behavioural issues", I probably would've turned out the same way. Lucky I was taught right from wrong at a very young age, don't have complete drop-kick parents (rich ones can be sh*t too), and have nothing to prove to effwits, no matter where I live.

 

 

I think you are reading what you want to read here. I also don't see where the poster hasn't made up their mind?


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  Reply # 1586924 6-Jul-2016 08:59
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dickytim:

 

 

 

There is actually likely to be some efficiencies from increasing the prison population as well so the cost may drop considerably.

 

I will pay extra tax for this as the increased safety and peace of mind is worth it.

 

 

If I thought this worked I would agree with you. Unfortunately, experience elsewhere indicates that it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. More prisons do not equal increased safety and peace of mind. If that is your goal, you need to take the money and resources swallowed up by prisons and invest them in preventive measures by giving people at the bottom better opportunities to participate in society so they feel they have a stake in it. Some people are just sociopaths and cannot be helped so lock those up, but they are only a minority of the prison population. Most people can be helped onto the right path with the right assistance. That is where your investment should go, not into ever-more prisons.

 

 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1586931 6-Jul-2016 09:15
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Sideface:

 

surfisup1000:

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11668095

 

 

From his defence counsel as quoted in this article:

 

"He accepts what he did was absolutely wrong, he has apologised over and over again and accepts such behaviour is simply not acceptable," she said.

 

"He'd like to put his past behind him. ..."

 

Yeah, right.  undecided

 

 

These guys generally really mean it. 

 

Then they get mad about something and the "red mist" descends....and there's blood everywhere.

 

I see it as a form of mental illness. They actually have no control once they "lose it".  





____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


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  Reply # 1586955 6-Jul-2016 09:53
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Rikkitic:

dickytim:


 


There is actually likely to be some efficiencies from increasing the prison population as well so the cost may drop considerably.


I will pay extra tax for this as the increased safety and peace of mind is worth it.



If I thought this worked I would agree with you. Unfortunately, experience elsewhere indicates that it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. More prisons do not equal increased safety and peace of mind. If that is your goal, you need to take the money and resources swallowed up by prisons and invest them in preventive measures by giving people at the bottom better opportunities to participate in society so they feel they have a stake in it. Some people are just sociopaths and cannot be helped so lock those up, but they are only a minority of the prison population. Most people can be helped onto the right path with the right assistance. That is where your investment should go, not into ever-more prisons.


 


 



We are talking about the worst 1% here that assistance/carrot/stick doesn't work.

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  Reply # 1586995 6-Jul-2016 10:39
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If you are talking about the worst 1% then I probably agree with you. The problem is that no distinction is being made between these and the other 99%. Things won't improve just by dumping more people in prison. Change has to happen at the base of society.

 

 





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  Reply # 1587005 6-Jul-2016 10:48
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Fred99:

 

The MAOA gene is located on the X chromosome - not in the mitochondrial genome.

 

That location on the X chromosome has implications for heritability / expression in males vs females.

 

 

Oops, my bad.  I got confused as it codes a mitochondrial enzyme (BioChem was a few years ago now).  That actually makes it more interesting!

 

Assuming normal XX or XY parents ...

 

- Males get their X from their mother so MAOA is maternally inherited by males. 

 

- Females get an X from each parent so could acquire an MAOA from either/both parents i.e. females could have two copies.





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  Reply # 1587068 6-Jul-2016 12:49
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Rikkitic:

 

If you are talking about the worst 1% then I probably agree with you. The problem is that no distinction is being made between these and the other 99%. Things won't improve just by dumping more people in prison. Change has to happen at the base of society.

 

 

 

 

So the rest of the 99% of criminals then, what next?

 

I like the idea of the criminals having to face up to what they have done and make it right. You rob someone, you have to pay them (or their insurance company) back every cent you stole, if you don't have a job then be made to do a job like cleaning public areas etc. until the debt is paid, in full.

 

We had a well of gentleman drive his unregistered, unwarranted freshly imported Corvette into our retaining wall while drunk, the penalty was not even enough to cover the cost of the excess for the insurance claim, he refused to make things right. His name rhymes with Jerry Kones and he races cars. How do we expect the 99% to learn when they are getting very light punishments that don't even cover the damage they have done.


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  Reply # 1587133 6-Jul-2016 14:14
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I think a problem with these kinds of discussions is that people want quick and easy fixes and there just aren't any. If you look you can always find individual examples of outrageous acts where justice failed, and you can find examples of miscarriages of justice where people end up in prison for the wrong reasons. I stumbled across the following link by accident today but the first part especially is worth looking at if you are interested: http://www.ted.com/talks/john_legend_redemption_song

 

I don't have a problem, by the way, with making offenders offer restitution for their crimes. I think there are practical difficulties to doing this, but that shouldn't be an excuse not to try. I also think it wouldn't be a bad idea to make those who are able do some kind of work in exchange for benefit support, but then the benefit should also be raised to at least minimum wage level. My argument is only that there are lots of much better alternatives to prison for the bulk of offenders if there was just the political will to try them and to provide the necessary support. The problem is that many voters find it more satisfying to slap offenders into jail than to make the effort to help them get back on track. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 





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  Reply # 1587171 6-Jul-2016 15:12
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Geektastic:

 

There is an irony in a country founded as a penal colony sending back felons it doesn't want!

 

 

Sending back? Some of these "Kiwis" know nothing of NZ as they arrived in the Great Southern Land as infants


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  Reply # 1587173 6-Jul-2016 15:16
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Rikkitic:

 

dickytim:

 

 

 

There is actually likely to be some efficiencies from increasing the prison population as well so the cost may drop considerably.

 

I will pay extra tax for this as the increased safety and peace of mind is worth it.

 

 

If I thought this worked I would agree with you. Unfortunately, experience elsewhere indicates that it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. More prisons do not equal increased safety and peace of mind. If that is your goal, you need to take the money and resources swallowed up by prisons and invest them in preventive measures by giving people at the bottom better opportunities to participate in society so they feel they have a stake in it. Some people are just sociopaths and cannot be helped so lock those up, but they are only a minority of the prison population. Most people can be helped onto the right path with the right assistance. That is where your investment should go, not into ever-more prisons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How do you know what you are proposing will work?


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  Reply # 1587179 6-Jul-2016 15:35
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I don't but it seems to work for other countries with less punitive regimes. As someone has pointed out, cultural differences may have something to do with that so there is no guarantee that something like what I am proposing would work here, but what I am certain of is that the current situation doesn't work and bigger and better prisons is just more of the same. Isn't it time to try something else? Maybe it will help, maybe it won't, but at least we will know.

 

 





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  Reply # 1587321 6-Jul-2016 21:35
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What we need are the Borg. They would soon sort this nonsense out.






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