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  Reply # 1590656 12-Jul-2016 22:58
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Geektastic:

 

 

 

 

 

What's a "firies"?

 

 

Firefighter.


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  Reply # 1590668 12-Jul-2016 23:32
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networkn:

 

There is an entire department in the USA policing force who's job it is to discipline police officers. 

 

 

 

 

What are you on about? There's no pan-USA "policing force". Police forces/sheriffs department in the US operate on a county, city or state bases mostly. There are federal enforcement agencies like the FBI, ATF etc that have particular jurisdictions. I have an LLM from a US law school (albeit I didn't study criminal law) and I've never heard of this magical department (again, within the context of your post you can only be referring to a federal agency) whose sole or main job is to discipline police officers across the US. As we have learnt recently and often, most police shootings and/or alleged misconduct are investigated by the internal affairs people in the same agency complained about.

 

The FBI's civil rights division doesn't just investigate civil rights claims involving alleged police misconduct either. When your facts aren't even straight, it's hard to take the rest of your posts seriously.


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  Reply # 1590730 13-Jul-2016 00:11
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dejadeadnz:

 

networkn:

 

There is an entire department in the USA policing force who's job it is to discipline police officers. 

 

 

 

 

What are you on about? There's no pan-USA "policing force". Police forces/sheriffs department in the US operate on a county, city or state bases mostly. There are federal enforcement agencies like the FBI, ATF etc that have particular jurisdictions. I have an LLM from a US law school (albeit I didn't study criminal law) and I've never heard of this magical department (again, within the context of your post you can only be referring to a federal agency) whose sole or main job is to discipline police officers across the US. As we have learnt recently and often, most police shootings and/or alleged misconduct are investigated by the internal affairs people in the same agency complained about.

 

The FBI's civil rights division doesn't just investigate civil rights claims involving alleged police misconduct either. When your facts aren't even straight, it's hard to take the rest of your posts seriously.

 

 

 

 

Sorry I misspoke I meant "investigate", and that would be the internal affairs department (often referred to as IID).

 

Similar to the IPCA in NZ, they are notified after each police officer fires his/her weapon in the line of duty. Of course all of you with tin foil hats will foo foo any investigation that doesn't involved stringing every police officer who kills someone in the line of duty up by his/her Gubunaculars, but you have access to a FRACTION of the information those investigators do, despite what the media would have you believe. 

 

 


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  Reply # 1590751 13-Jul-2016 00:34
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networkn:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry I misspoke I meant "investigate", and that would be the internal affairs department (often referred to as IID).

 

Similar to the IPCA in NZ, they are notified after each police officer fires his/her weapon in the line of duty. Of course all of you with tin foil hats will foo foo any investigation that doesn't involved stringing every police officer who kills someone in the line of duty up by his/her Gubunaculars, but you have access to a FRACTION of the information those investigators do, despite what the media would have you believe. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And you're still wrong. Stop digging.

 

The previous post that I replied to clearly implied that there is some overarching pan-USA department that investigates police misconduct as its main job. A quick look on even Wikipedia will turn you that this isn't the case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_affairs_(law_enforcement)

 

I don't really want to get into this thread too deeply, beyond a few higher level/abstract philosophical issues. But for anyone to take your points in what is a quite emotive debate seriously, especially when this also involves issues of legal interpretation such as when police officers are justified in using force which, I might just add that I am probably reasonably well qualified to comment on and analyse as an ex-prosecutor and defence lawyer, the ability to get basic background facts correct would certainly help.

 

And please read the FUG and do not start launching into abuse of others who disagree with you (or that you think are hostile to your views). What I am personally seeing is an extraordinarily unhealthy, disproportionately high per capita rate of police shooting of blacks in the US, much higher levels of arrest and searching of blacks, and harsher penalties for blacks who offend against the law. These are facts that the DOJ and President Obama, for example, have pointed out. Are they also tin foil hats? And for someone who rather obnoxiously criticised another poster with whom you disagreed as basically an angry guy unleashing a diatribe, your little verbiage above is most unbecoming.  


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  Reply # 1592176 13-Jul-2016 18:55
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/12/obama-dallas-memorial-five-officers-killed-protest-shooting

 

One has to give credit Presidents Obama and Bush (the latter certainly not always known as for his eloquence and ability to grasp some of the complex issues involved here). An event such as the memorial for the killed officers could easily (in the deranged hands of some of the typical GOP politicians) have been turned into a hagiographic beat up for the increasing tendency to emphasise the primacy of the law enforcer, as opposed to respecting the law including suspects' and citizens' rights. Good on President Obama for firmly rejecting the nonsense that wanting to solve some of the institutional issues is wrong and a kind of law enforcement bashing.

 

No act of violence of the sort perpetrated by the loony concerned is justifiable. But it's doubly sad when the consequences of this person's unhingedness are visited predominantly upon a police force that has made serious progress on all levels and is led by an intelligent and dedicated Chief aware of the pertinent issues. This certainly isn't the Oakland PD or San Francisco PD, for example.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1592298 13-Jul-2016 23:12
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networkn:

 

Geektastic:

 

 

 

 

 

What's a "firies"?

 

 

Firefighter.

 

 

 

 

Oh, I thought someone mistyped fairies. What is wrong with using the actual word?!






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  Reply # 1592305 14-Jul-2016 07:01
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mattwnz:

 

The question is how long? How long before they will do something about all these shootings and gun related problems. NZ doesn't have the best rep for gun related incidents either. 

 

 

But as a country we don't live in fear of gun related violence, so it doesn't perpetuate itself.

 

Most of the videos you see the police are literally shaking in their boots as they approach a black person in a vehicle, guns drawn and finger on the trigger.

 

I am wondering if the police are as susceptible to the stereotype of every black man is going to shoot you as most other Americans are?

 

People put the events that have lead to this as racism, and for the most part it is, but it seems it is racism based on disproportionate media reporting and the fear it creates.

 

It seems like a vicious circle with cops killing black people, black people killing cops and it continues.

 

 


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  Reply # 1592306 14-Jul-2016 07:07
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dickytim:


Most of the videos you see the police are literally shaking in their boots as they approach a black person in a vehicle, guns drawn and finger on the trigger.


I am wondering if the police are as susceptible to the stereotype of every black man is going to shoot you as most other Americans are?


People put the events that have lead to this as racism, and for the most part it is, but it seems it is racism based on disproportionate media reporting and the fear it creates.


It seems like a vicious circle with cops killing black people, black people killing cops and it continues.


 



This sums it up pretty much!

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  Reply # 1592318 14-Jul-2016 08:31
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dickytim:

 

 

 

Most of the videos you see the police are literally shaking in their boots as they approach a black person in a vehicle, guns drawn and finger on the trigger.

 

I am wondering if the police are as susceptible to the stereotype of every black man is going to shoot you as most other Americans are?

 

People put the events that have lead to this as racism, and for the most part it is, but it seems it is racism based on disproportionate media reporting and the fear it creates.

 

 

 

 

Not sure how many people have seen this video https://youtu.be/yfi3Ndh3n-g

 

Either way I wouldn't want to be a Police Officer in the US.

 

 


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  Reply # 1592338 14-Jul-2016 09:49
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Well, I finally summoned up the courage to read through the last few pages of this thread - sometimes I find myself deliberately avoiding these types of threads because I know they all inevitably descend into positional argument where I can basically predict 1. who's going to be involved and 2. what their positions are, 3. where the argument will end up, and 4. that the reactionary rants by the usual suspects will just make me too p!ssed off to continue reading.

 

Anyway, what struck me, networkn, is your frequently argued point that police killings in the US are typically the result of a few bad apples in the police and/or mistakes by police officers:

 

  •  

    "instead of worrying so much about the OCCASIONAL bad cop..."

     

  • "Sometimes they will make a mistake."
  • "I believe there are SOME bad cops and those people should be held to account."

Are you really so naïve to believe it is this simple?! Your argument, by focusing on the "bad" individuals, or "mistakes" by a few, is so reductionist in that it takes these actions out of that critical context of imbedded institutional and societal racism that continues to define modern America. This isn't going to be "solved" by holding these individuals to account; sure, accountability is critical as it may both act as a sign these things are being taken seriously and (heaven forbid) reflect a wider change in attitudes and practices. But this is only just scratching at the surface. And in a society where it's apparently ok to have the presidential candidate of one of the two main parties courting the redneck vote through openly expressing racist dribble it's sometimes difficult to see how such fundamental change is possible. And that's not even getting onto that county's problem with guns... In so many ways the US appears to be going to hell in a hand basket, as my father would say.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1592345 14-Jul-2016 10:24
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jonathan18:

 

Well, I finally summoned up the courage to read through the last few pages of this thread - sometimes I find myself deliberately avoiding these types of threads because I know they all inevitably descend into positional argument where I can basically predict 1. who's going to be involved and 2. what their positions are, 3. where the argument will end up, and 4. that the reactionary rants by the usual suspects will just make me too p!ssed off to continue reading.

 

Anyway, what struck me, networkn, is your frequently argued point that police killings in the US are typically the result of a few bad apples in the police and/or mistakes by police officers:

 

  • "instead of worrying so much about the OCCASIONAL bad cop..."
  • "Sometimes they will make a mistake."
  • "I believe there are SOME bad cops and those people should be held to account."

Are you really so naïve to believe it is this simple?! Your argument, by focusing on the "bad" individuals, or "mistakes" by a few, is so reductionist in that it takes these actions out of that critical context of imbedded institutional and societal racism that continues to define modern America. This isn't going to be "solved" by holding these individuals to account; sure, accountability is critical as it may both act as a sign these things are being taken seriously and (heaven forbid) reflect a wider change in attitudes and practices. But this is only just scratching at the surface. And in a society where it's apparently ok to have the presidential candidate of one of the two main parties courting the redneck vote through openly expressing racist dribble it's sometimes difficult to see how such fundamental change is possible. And that's not even getting onto that county's problem with guns... In so many ways the US appears to be going to hell in a hand basket, as my father would say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not denying there is a problem, nor was I suggesting that there was a single simple fix, of course it's possible to twist anything to suit an agenda. I do however believe that there are a relatively small number of bad cops compared to what is being portrayed. I do believe a lot of these "overreactions" by police officers (Using too much force, using the wrong type of force), are bourne largely out of fear, (whether it be real or perceived by the individual officer(s) in question). I think it's really easy to sit in NZ having no real experience of overseas situations and be critical.

 

My issue is that there seems to have been pages of suggestions (as I have understood it) that the American police force is corrupt, that they are basically a kill squad for black people, which is simply untrue, and the suggestion that you could get away with it in a large scale simply defies belief. There WILL be systemic failures, but I find it quite incredible that there are suggestions that because an officer kills a black person and isn't prosecuted, that the investigation or investigators was corrupt.

 

I agree that the issue lies much further up the chain and I agree that people like Trump are basically inciting evil (and fueling the existing) with their rhetoric, and that before him were quite a few others.

 

I don't know how to address the situation in it's entirety, to some degree I believe it's generational and once this current generation die off, the following generation will be MORE acccepting and MORE tolerant (as has been in almost every generation since time remains). There will always be extremists, not much you can do about that. (extremists on both sides for the record).

 

 


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  Reply # 1592349 14-Jul-2016 10:30
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Disclaimer; I know jack sh*t about this.

 

To me NZ would seem to have a good oversight procedure for our Police with the judiciary and the Independent Police Complaints Authority. The US has an incredibly complex political, judicial and policing set up which makes it near impossible to have a system

 

similar to what we have. That said, maybe they could look at ours and take some lessons from it.

 

 





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 1592373 14-Jul-2016 11:01
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One problem (not the only one) with policing in America is that it is so fragmented. Every town, county, state, and god knows what else has its own police force. They work together in terms of passing information and suspects back and forth, but each is completely independent of the others and they all have their own way of working. This means they all also have different cultures. Some are open and progressive, some still remind of the fat, red-faced deep south sheriff stereotype. Some are more competent and up to date than others. Some tolerate degrees of racism, others don't. Some have higher recruitment standards than others. And so on. There is no single, national, oversight body that enforces any particular set of standards. The police department you encounter anywhere is pot-luck, maybe good, maybe not so good. It is not sensible to make sweeping generalisations about policing throughout America based on the actions of individual departments, or the actions of individual officers.

 

I agree with networkn that most police are honest, dedicated individuals doing a very difficult job under very trying circumstances. I think most are honourable. I also think there inevitably are some rotten ones who do rotten things. Some departments do have cultures that promote, or at least do not discourage, racist thinking. This is a problem across America. There should be no tolerance at all for cops who abuse their position of trust, especially when fatalities result. There should be no place for panicky officers who reach for their guns as a first resort instead of a last one. There needs to be some kind of national standards body that can hold police to account anywhere in the country. There is no excuse for bad cops. But don't tar them all with the same brush. That can only lead to more tragedies.

 

   





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1592375 14-Jul-2016 11:04
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The guardian has deaths in 2016 by police at 585 and counting. I wonder how many of these is perceived to be "intentional murder" as opposed to "reasonable use of appropriate force". When you post a number and focus on it without breaking it down, hysteria follows. 


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  Reply # 1592425 14-Jul-2016 11:39
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networkn:

 

I am not denying there is a problem, nor was I suggesting that there was a single simple fix, of course it's possible to twist anything to suit an agenda. I do however believe that there are a relatively small number of bad cops compared to what is being portrayed. I do believe a lot of these "overreactions" by police officers (Using too much force, using the wrong type of force), are bourne largely out of fear, (whether it be real or perceived by the individual officer(s) in question). I think it's really easy to sit in NZ having no real experience of overseas situations and be critical.

 

 

 

Yawn -- more of that reductionist argument. You seem to think it's a really interesting fact that most police officers are not bad people. It's not. This is about as interesting as saying that most people aren't murderers, most blacks don't want to shoot cops and so forth. What your repeated hectoring of people over this point does reveal, however, is your failure to understand and grasp some of the really severe systemic issues at work. Every debate around police misconduct these days cannot be had without someone somewhere yelling out loud the same point that you are making. Yet, for example, if doctors make a mistake and a patient die, the first thing a DHB (for example) will say is that they apologise for the harm and that one death is too many etc whilst also pointing to how things go right the vast majority of the time afterwards and not the other way around. Why do you think that is?

 

Justice is indivisible. Walter Scott was indisputably captured on video as being shot running away from Michael Slager, who fired at him 8 times and hitting him 5 times; Laquan Macdonald was shot by the Chicago police and then blackballed as having been the aggressor in spite of there being a video that clearly contradicted everything that the cops on scene had said. Said video was also known to the mayor and the now (former) police chief until media pressure and lawsuits led to its release and the Chicago PD collectively backing down. For 13 months the Chicago authorities ignored and fought every request to release the video. The people of Cleveland continues to labour under a police force whose respect for others' civil rights is so pathetic that they remain under Department of Justice supervision.

 

I detail these not to prove a point that somehow cops in the US are bad or at least worse than you think. The point is that when there are obvious injustices, the most morally significant and decent thing to do is focus on the injustices and not comfortable backslapping about how things mostly go right and how a class of people who are obligated to respect the law and are meant to be the protector of the consenting citizens are generally okay people.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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