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  Reply # 1605669 6-Aug-2016 22:04
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dafman:

 

networkn:

 

Good grief. Hung drawn and quartered before the verdict is in. Sounds Kiwi to me. 

 

Discussing punishment before even hearing the other side of the story or waiting for an investigation. Wow. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A national rugby team, role models to young kids, ordered a stripper in. They did the same thing last year. What other side of the story is it that you are missing?

 

 

 

 

I personally don't have any interest in strippers, but they aren't illegal. They are commonly used in entertainment and celebrations. A good chunk of the population wouldn't even bat an eyelid at the story. There would have been some disapproving tut tuts and a promise to never do it again and the whole thing would be gone by now. 

 

The story got it's legs because said stripper and another have made some allegations. Those led to poorly chosen communications by the Chiefs management and head sponsors representative which they have apologized for. 

 

In short, there is very little to talk about here without the strippers allegations. This topic isn't about that, but it's not really reasonable to discuss one without the other.


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  Reply # 1605670 6-Aug-2016 22:06
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MikeB4:

 

networkn:

 

MikeB4:

 

The Chiefs should be suspended for the first 5 matches of the 2017 season following a formal hearing.

 

 

I think what you mean to say is :

 

 

 

Given that in NZ presumption of innocence is the basis of our justice system, and in moving forward in the fairest way, pending an investigation, IF the Chiefs have been found guilty of the accusations being made against them then.....

 

 

 

 

I did type "following a formal hearing"

 

 

Which MAY find that there was nothing to answer for except that they hired a Stripper two years running, which isn't illegal and certainly in my mind does NOT warrant a 5 week suspension. Do you really think hiring a stripper should see 5 weeks suspension?


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  Reply # 1605671 6-Aug-2016 22:11
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If the allegations are substantiated then sanctions against the team is required.





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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

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The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 1605673 6-Aug-2016 22:16
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As for the comments by the Gallagher's employee that is up to the company to deal with.  The NZRFU and Chiefs to decide if they want to continue with the association with Gallagher I think it would be unwise to do so.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 




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  Reply # 1605674 6-Aug-2016 22:18
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networkn:
This topic isn't about that, but it's not really reasonable to discuss one without the other.


Networkn, honestly this is enough. An assertion doesn't make an argument. It is absolutely reasonable for people to criticise the deplorable response from Comer and others towards the allegations by the stripper, whether or not the stripper's allegation is proven. Apply the golden rule: are you going to keep hectoring that position of yours (which you have never defended with an actual argument) if you had a daughter who alleged wrongdoing of some sort by others and a third party comes along and says "Because of the work you do, you bloody deserve it. As far as I can see the people you accused of did nothing wrong and I say this before the substantive allegations have been investigated!"?

I am sure many people who have read this thread in full would be interested in your answer.

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  Reply # 1605675 6-Aug-2016 22:18
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You have been challenged at lesst three times by myself and gzt to identify what an investigation is going to achieve insofar as the utterly unacceptable statements by Comer are concerned. All you are doing is repeating over and over ad nauseum that there should be an investigation. Insofar as the substantive allegations by the stripper is concerned, that is correct. But it doesn't follow from this that Comer was in any way justified in responding to the allegations as she did and to further insult and demean the victim with her pathetic apology.

The fact that you have shown no significant sign of having any sensitivity to this is rather appalling. This kind of attitude is nothing less than a form of enabling of the kind of attitude Comer displayed.

Edit: Given that you maintain there is no victim here, you clearly don't think Comer's words have had an impact on the complainant. I sincerely hope I am not the only person disgusted by your views.

 

Snore. Sigh. 

 

I am saying until the Chiefs complete their investigation, there may be no victim. 

 

I have repeatedly stated that Comer made poorly worded statements in relation to the allegation, but unlike you, I don't see this as a world ending event. You have no evidence she isn't getting heat (disciplinary action etc) for that, or that she hasn't learned a valuable lesson. People make mistakes (Except, it seems, you), and are capable of learning from them and handling things better in the future. I have no evidence to support the fact she is getting heat, but it does stand to reason. Time till tell if she learns from that, but until then, I see no point in continuing to discuss it.

 

How could I answer the question about what an investigation (into Comer) would achieve? Does that mean there isn't anything to be achieved?




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  Reply # 1605676 6-Aug-2016 22:21
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You must have missed the contents of her apology if you think she learnt anything from it. I won't waste any more of my time.

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  Reply # 1605678 6-Aug-2016 22:31
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dejadeadnz: I won't waste any more of my time.


Sounds like a good idea to me.




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  Reply # 1605680 6-Aug-2016 22:32
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dejadeadnz:
networkn:
This topic isn't about that, but it's not really reasonable to discuss one without the other.


Networkn, honestly this is enough. An assertion doesn't make an argument. It is absolutely reasonable for people to criticise the deplorable response from Comer and others towards the allegations by the stripper, whether or not the stripper's allegation is proven. Apply the golden rule: are you going to keep hectoring that position of yours (which you have never defended with an actual argument) if you had a daughter who alleged wrongdoing of some sort by others and a third party comes along and says "Because of the work you do, you bloody deserve it. As far as I can see the people you accused of did nothing wrong and I say this before the substantive allegations have been investigated!"?

I am sure many people who have read this thread in full would be interested in your answer.

 

I am really growing pretty tired of the combative tone of just about every response you make to me. It would be good for you to find a more neutral tone in which to have a debate.

 

As for your question about a hypothetical situation involving my daughter, would I be upset, yeah, possible a LITTLE, would I be calling her deplorable? No, would I expect her to attempt to learn from her mistakes, yes.

 

I'd be pretty much inclined to take her apology indicating she chose her words poorly at face value.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1605690 6-Aug-2016 22:47
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networkn:

 

Good grief. Hung drawn and quartered before the verdict is in. Sounds Kiwi to me. 

 

 

The topic is about the despicable comments by Margaret Comer and her non-apology apology.

 

If there's space for a discussion about the Chiefs behaviour then please create a new topic in the Sports sub-forum.

 

I think the comments about her words are correct. Her words were terrible in the sense that even without everything being out there she automatically determined the woman in this story to have some part of it because of what she does for a living - this is unacceptable. 





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  Reply # 1605691 6-Aug-2016 22:52
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freitasm:

 

networkn:

 

Good grief. Hung drawn and quartered before the verdict is in. Sounds Kiwi to me. 

 

 

The topic is about the despicable comments by Margaret Comer and her non-apology apology.

 

If there's space for a discussion about the Chiefs behaviour then please create a new topic in the Sports sub-forum.

 

I think the comments about her words are correct. Her words were terrible in the sense that even without everything being out there she automatically determined the woman in this story to have some part of it because of what she does for a living - this is unacceptable. 

 

 

 

 

Which I have agreed with, over and over. I guess it comes down to degrees. I don't think it's the end of the world. I expect she is capable of learning from her mistakes, and I do not believe that her comments automatically make her a bad person.

 

 


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  Reply # 1605692 6-Aug-2016 22:55
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She should know better, after all she's on the board of the Waikato Women's Refuge. She should know all about women's rights.

 

No, sir. Inexcusable behaviour without a full apology directed at the person, not the audience.





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  Reply # 1605697 6-Aug-2016 23:05
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freitasm:

 

She should know better, after all she's on the board of the Waikato Women's Refuge. She should know all about women's rights.

 

No, sir. Inexcusable behaviour without a full apology directed at the person, not the audience.

 

 

 

 

Well, this isn't really about womens rights, because it should be the same reaction from people if the complainant is male.

 

I would have thought, however, that her role there would have given her more empathy in general.

 

Plenty to be learned from this experience for lots of people, even those not directly involved.

 

 




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  Reply # 1605711 6-Aug-2016 23:51
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networkn:

 

 

 

 

 

Which I have agreed with, over and over. I guess it comes down to degrees. I don't think it's the end of the world. I expect she is capable of learning from her mistakes, and I do not believe that her comments automatically make her a bad person.

 

 

 

 

 

You claim to agree with the position that Comer's original comments are deplorable. Yet after giving words that apparently support that view, you wrote (my previous quote and response to the post I am about to detail was far too charitable):

 

 

The story got it's legs because said stripper and another have made some allegations. Those led to poorly chosen communications by the Chiefs management and head sponsors representative which they have apologized for. 

 

 

 

In short, there is very little to talk about here without the strippers allegations. This topic isn't about that, but it's not really reasonable to discuss one without the other.

 

 

 

You continue to promote a view that "there is little to talk about" without the strippers allegations. There is plenty to talk about, for all the reasons that gzt, Freitasm, myself and others have repeatedly told you. You also have a habit of simply ignoring points of view (backed up by evidence) that are inconsistent with your position. You assume that Comer's apology is sincere, when the plain words of her apology contain an excuse that she had misspoken (her original words were clear) and contained no apology to the stripper concerned for any distress suffered. You continue to insist that it is unreasonable to criticise the response to the stripper's allegation without somehow visiting the issue of whether the stripper's allegations are true, which every person in this thread has agreed must be determined after a thorough and fair investigation.

 

Let's play a counterfactual: assuming that the stripper lied, that would make her a liar and someone who intentionally maligned other people without regard for the hurt that they will suffer. That too would make her a terrible person by my books. But none of this changes the fact that Margaret Comer told the whole world that before a thing was investigated that because she was a stripper, she either deserved whatever happened to her and/or that the players did nothing wrong. You don't think this is a big deal -- good for you. By your contentions are not immune to examination.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1605757 7-Aug-2016 10:28
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dejadeadnz:

 

 

 

You claim to agree with the position that Comer's original comments are deplorable. Yet after giving words that apparently support that view, you wrote (my previous quote and response to the post I am about to detail was far too charitable):

 

 

 

 

No, I don't claim they are deplorable, I think they are unwise, and poorly chosen. Her apology wasn't specific enough. I don't think that AUTOMATICALLY makes her a bad person as you have asserted, we won't agree it seems on this, so let's both move on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You continue to promote a view that "there is little to talk about" without the strippers allegations. There is plenty to talk about, for all the reasons that gzt, Freitasm, myself and others have repeatedly told you. You also have a habit of simply ignoring points of view (backed up by evidence) that are inconsistent with your position. You assume that Comer's apology is sincere, when the plain words of her apology contain an excuse that she had misspoken (her original words were clear) and contained no apology to the stripper concerned for any distress suffered. You continue to insist that it is unreasonable to criticise the response to the stripper's allegation without somehow visiting the issue of whether the stripper's allegations are true, which every person in this thread has agreed must be determined after a thorough and fair investigation.

 

Let's play a counterfactual: assuming that the stripper lied, that would make her a liar and someone who intentionally maligned other people without regard for the hurt that they will suffer. That too would make her a terrible person by my books. But none of this changes the fact that Margaret Comer told the whole world that before a thing was investigated that because she was a stripper, she either deserved whatever happened to her and/or that the players did nothing wrong. You don't think this is a big deal -- good for you. By your contentions are not immune to examination.

 

 

No! A story about an end of year party involving a stripper (without the alleged extra bad behaviour) wouldn't have led Comer to comment the way she did. Flexman already came out against the idea of having a stripper. That's where that likely would have ended. New celebratory guidelines would have been established and everyone would move on.

 

Comers comments and Flexmans calling out of her recall of events based her occupation only came after she had made her accusations. The story came alive again after the accusations, and more so because of the unwise comments by Flexman and Comer (and is the entire premise of your topic).

 

I can't see us finding common ground on this, so let's just both move on.

 

 


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