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  Reply # 1619944 30-Aug-2016 21:43
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tdgeek:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Broaden your mind. Imagine the unimaginable. Just because we have organic limits doesn't mean another life form would. We all have to obey the laws of physics, but within that constraint literally anything is possible. We think and live competition because we are parasites and have become supreme at feeding off other living things. It is a big universe, big enough for a different kind of evolution that does not depend on competition, but cooperation. Maybe there is a place where the dominant species is the one best at getting along with others. Maybe intelligent crystals evolve by focussing sunlight to extract minerals. It doesn't always have to be dog eat dog.

 

 

First rule of discussion, don't tell me to broaden my mind. Understand the Universe, what we are made of, we are not special. Nor do all lifeforms want everything for free.

 

You need to look at the science, not the Mega Upload on Alpha Centauri B, Or C

 

 

 

 

This is an interesting debate on the theory of everything, in particular go to about 10.30-11.00 this guy "broadens his mind" thinking about things ...

 

 

NDGT on string theory ...

 


gzt

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  Reply # 1619947 30-Aug-2016 21:52
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TwoSeven: I am not sure how many people are familiar with the current version of einsteins field equation for general relativity, but the way I read it would be that for the big expansion (which some people call a bang) it implies that energy has a pressure which must push things outwards.

Not all forms of energy exist all of the time, and some forms of energy we guess is there by observing potential effects on things we can see. I am not sure I agree with the concep of dark matter, but dark energy is plausible although I am leaning to the idea of there being dark fields.

Also, time is relative to space, so I don't think there could have been a 'before the big bang' in the same way there is likely no after (since it is still happening).



New galaxy discovery: 99.99% dark matter.

Imo we will have an answer soon building on this discovery. 10-20 years..

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  Reply # 1619993 30-Aug-2016 23:31
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tdgeek:

TwoSeven: I am not sure how many people are familiar with the current version of einsteins field equation for general relativity, but the way I read it would be that for the big expansion (which some people call a bang) it implies that energy has a pressure which must push things outwards.

Not all forms of energy exist all of the time, and some forms of energy we guess is there by observing potential effects on things we can see. I am not sure I agree with the concep of dark matter, but dark energy is plausible although I am leaning to the idea of there being dark fields.

Also, time is relative to space, so I don't think there could have been a 'before the big bang' in the same way there is likely no after (since it is still happening).


Time. I don't get time and space. What was going on 2 seconds before the so-called Big Bang? Expansion of the universe, if it is expanding, which I agree with, what exists 2 inches outside of the current Universe perimeter?


How can time not exist before the Big Bang? 2 seconds before. It has to be that nothing existed?? How can nothing exist? There is no space? 


I cannot believe the big bang theory, I believe there has always been space and atoms, and they expand, then perhaps the big crush theory, then its too dense sonic explodes and expands, but not from a single dot.


Take our Sun, its big, in 5 million years it will expand past earth and Mars, then go super nova, and it starts again. I see the Universe as such, except over trillions of years, which again is hard to comprehend. How the massive space can be so stable is amazing. 



Perhaps An easy way to think about it is to take some coordinates, x and y which form a point (x,y) - now add z to it to get a point, but in a 3 dimensional space (x,y,z), then make it a point in time (x,y,z,t). If you put a line with a arrow pointing to the right above that last bit (representing size) and a theta symbol in front (representing all angles) it becomes a sphere of some size in time with all the points inside it. That is the universe, when all the values are zero, it is the beginning of the universe, its size is zero and there is no time.

As I see it, time only exists inside that sphere. Pressure is pushing the sphere outwards so it is getting bigger. Because things take time to move, everything you see is in the past (about 3 nanoseconds per meter), so when we look towards the middle of the observable bit of the universe, we are looking back billions of years due to the distance and the time the light took to get here.

I understand that when our sun runs out of hydrogen, gravity will make it smaller and the helium will start to turn into carbon, which will cause it to get bigger and form a red giant. I don't think it will explode, but when the red giant burns out, the outer layer will likely form a planetary nebulae which is a name for a cloud of gas, inside will be a white dwarf star

The stability I think comes from gravity being balanced by fission. The universe probably cannot contract because there probably isn't a force like gravity that would pull it back.




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  Reply # 1619996 30-Aug-2016 23:59
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tdgeek:

 

Time. I don't get time and space. What was going on 2 seconds before the so-called Big Bang? Expansion of the universe, if it is expanding, which I agree with, what exists 2 inches outside of the current Universe perimeter?

 

"Time" started with the Big Bang. There was no "before", because there was no TIME for it to exist IN. It's like asking what Wine was like before there was wine: it's an illogical question. What were YOU doing before YOU existed?

 

And the same applies to matter.

 

Contrary to what some have been told, you can INDEED get something from nothing. It's even been experimentally proven. In fact, the entire universe is an example. But it is happening all the time, all around, and through you on the smallest of scales. Energy and matter burst into existence and instantly disappear again (matter/anti-matter annihilation). The Quantum Vacuum. Zero point energy. The Casimir effect.

 

Outside the universe? Since you are part of the universe, it expands with you so you can never be outside it in the classical sense. Possibly, if our universe is one of many inside a Multiverse, you might find a way to be outside this universe but you cannot be outside the Multiverse. So it's the same logic problem just pushed one step further out.

 

 

 

And if you'd like something truly mind bending to think about, try this:

 

In a multiverse, you get a new sub-universe budding off from every quantum interaction in the parent universe. This is essentially how quantum computers work. So, every decision you make, every thing that has happened generates an infinite number of results in as many universes...

 

That being so:

 

All things that are logically possible exist somewhere in the multiverse. Every book you read, film you watch, and an infinite variety of other ideas exists somewhere, in reality, out there. And each one has an infinite number of variations. Infinities upon infinities.

 

How can time not exist before the Big Bang? 2 seconds before. It has to be that nothing existed?? How can nothing exist? There is no space? 

 

What measurement mark exists on a school ruler BEFORE the 0mm mark? What was the light from your light bulb doing BEFORE you turned it on?

 

It's a difficult concept for people to grasp, this idea of total non-existence. They instinctively try to apply a Before and an Outside or a Into. But start with time: before time there was No Time. I'm not being funny, I'm saying ZERO TIME. E.g. anything that happened, all happened at once in ZERO TIME. A time singularity. A zero dimensional point on the spectrum of time.

 

It has interesting consequences: a particular happening - say the spontaneous eruption of a universe from some runaway quantum vacuum fluctuation that would take quintillions of years to happen by chance in OUR time-bound universe - would happen INSTANTLY in the zero-point field. But even that is not accurate: 'instantly' implies some form of time-reference. But it's a difficult concept to communicate in a language that by it's very nature inherently references time/space based concepts. That is why it is done in maths, where zero is very much zero and no debate can be entered into. Zero and Infinity are very interesting concepts to those with the intelligence to grasp their significance.

 

I cannot believe the big bang theory, I believe there has always been space and atoms, and they expand, then perhaps the big crush theory, then its too dense sonic explodes and expands, but not from a single dot.

 

You need only prove your theory, then, in the best scientific tradition.

 

The Big Bang theory has many faults, but it's saving grace is that it has LESS faults than other competing theories - such as yours. But we have other theories that explain much more and do so much better - but they await confirmation from experimental and observational science. E.g. coming up with a nice sounding idea is not enough - people will want proof.

 

Take our Sun, its big, in 5 million years it will expand past earth and Mars, then go super nova, and it starts again. I see the Universe as such, except over trillions of years, which again is hard to comprehend. How the massive space can be so stable is amazing. 

 

5 BILLION years. Space is not that stable either - it's changed it's form fundamentally at least 3 times, and possibly more, so far. The future could see it change again - such as proton decay, or  the 'Big Rip', or even cool down so far it could 'phase change' into some new form of space-time, or even quantum-tunnel into a new energy state.

 

One thing is for sure: we guess at some, but KNOW very little, and the universe has more in it that we can even guess at. 

 

 


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  Reply # 1620004 31-Aug-2016 00:58
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tdgeek:

 

Take our Sun, its big, in 5 million years it will expand past earth and Mars, then go super nova, and it starts again. I see the Universe as such, except over trillions of years, which again is hard to comprehend. How the massive space can be so stable is amazing. 

 

 

Oh dear what can you say to that?

 

We could have a competition to see how many errors there are in that one statement.

 

Here is my entry:

 

As has already been pointed out, the sun will enter the red giant phase in 5 billion years not 5 million.

 

In its red giant phase, the Sun will certainly expand out past the orbit of Venus.

 

It will most certainly not expand out as far as the orbit of Mars.

 

It will probably, but not certainly, expand out to reach the orbit of the Earth. We do not know. We have not been able to observe enough red giants in enough detail to actually be sure about that. The best estimate is that the Sun will just manage to consume the Earth but it might not.

 

The Sun will not ever go super nova. That exciting fate is reserved for stars many time the mass of our one.

 

Even when a massive star does go super nova, it is not part of a repeating cycle. What goes into a super massive star at the beginning is almost entirely hydrogen. What is left after a super nova can well be described as almost entirely not hydrogen.

 

As far as we can tell, our universe appears likely to continue to expand forever and not to fall back in some big crunch.

 

Dis I miss anything?


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  Reply # 1620088 31-Aug-2016 09:38
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Rikkitic: Maybe there is a place where...

 

 

 

Maybe... you can go anywhere with "maybe."





My very metal Doctor Who theme

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  Reply # 1620107 31-Aug-2016 10:35
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BurningBeard:

 

Rikkitic: Maybe there is a place where...

 

 

 

Maybe... you can go anywhere with "maybe."

 

 

 

 

Probably true - well maybe.

 

Given that any testable hypothesis can only be made about the observable universe (as opposed to the entire universe, whatever that may be), then we're probably doomed to an unending series of maybes.

 

Perhaps that's pessimistic - maybe.


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  Reply # 1620111 31-Aug-2016 10:48
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Ok so if you subscribe to the big bang argument then all time/matter started from a singularity and has expanded "out" from there.

 

 

 

We also propound that nothing can travel faster than light so the light created from the big bang has travelled away from the singularity faster than anything else. Given we are matter travelling slower than light how can we possibly "see" light from an earlier "time" than our own as by the speed of light theory it has travelled faster than us and therefore we cannot look back at it? Are we in fact looking at it speeding away from us and therfore that gives us the impression that the universe is expanding. How can we see light that is older than us that should have already passed us????

 

 

 

Riddle me that.......


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  Reply # 1620117 31-Aug-2016 11:10
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Seakiwi:

 

Ok so if you subscribe to the big bang argument then all time/matter started from a singularity and has expanded "out" from there.

 

 

 

We also propound that nothing can travel faster than light so the light created from the big bang has travelled away from the singularity faster than anything else. Given we are matter travelling slower than light how can we possibly "see" light from an earlier "time" than our own as by the speed of light theory it has travelled faster than us and therefore we cannot look back at it? Are we in fact looking at it speeding away from us and therfore that gives us the impression that the universe is expanding. How can we see light that is older than us that should have already passed us????

 

 

 

Riddle me that.......

 

 

 

 

Rid yourself of the image that the big bang was limited to or initiated from "a point in space", and that it was actually an event that happened in and across the entirety of the universe regardless of how condensed it was. You couldn't see a boundary at the "other side" - "outside" of which may (or may not) have been infinite anyway despite the fact that all we can observe seems to be finite though without boundary because we can only see so far. What may have happened "outside" our observable universe doesn't affect us directly. It's highly improbable that we are at the centre of the universe, even though the observable universe suggests that's the case.  It's highly probable that the "bubble" of observable universe suggests the same (that you're at the centre) wherever you are in the universe, some areas may overlap and from another point in "our" universe there will be parts which don't overlap - so there will be parts of the universe, and even entire "observable" universes outside our own observable universe.  Perhaps there's an infinite number of them.


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  Reply # 1620122 31-Aug-2016 11:39
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an important tip about the Universe, when in bed at night do not  think about the size of Universe, it will hurt you. Doing so can cause an aneurysm.   





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 1620124 31-Aug-2016 11:47
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Brendan:

 

tdgeek:

 

Time. I don't get time and space. What was going on 2 seconds before the so-called Big Bang? Expansion of the universe, if it is expanding, which I agree with, what exists 2 inches outside of the current Universe perimeter?

 

"Time" started with the Big Bang. There was no "before", because there was no TIME for it to exist IN. It's like asking what Wine was like before there was wine: it's an illogical question. What were YOU doing before YOU existed?

 

And the same applies to matter.

 

Contrary to what some have been told, you can INDEED get something from nothing. It's even been experimentally proven. In fact, the entire universe is an example. But it is happening all the time, all around, and through you on the smallest of scales. Energy and matter burst into existence and instantly disappear again (matter/anti-matter annihilation). The Quantum Vacuum. Zero point energy. The Casimir effect.

 

Outside the universe? Since you are part of the universe, it expands with you so you can never be outside it in the classical sense. Possibly, if our universe is one of many inside a Multiverse, you might find a way to be outside this universe but you cannot be outside the Multiverse. So it's the same logic problem just pushed one step further out.

 

 

 

And if you'd like something truly mind bending to think about, try this:

 

In a multiverse, you get a new sub-universe budding off from every quantum interaction in the parent universe. This is essentially how quantum computers work. So, every decision you make, every thing that has happened generates an infinite number of results in as many universes...

 

That being so:

 

All things that are logically possible exist somewhere in the multiverse. Every book you read, film you watch, and an infinite variety of other ideas exists somewhere, in reality, out there. And each one has an infinite number of variations. Infinities upon infinities.

 

How can time not exist before the Big Bang? 2 seconds before. It has to be that nothing existed?? How can nothing exist? There is no space? 

 

What measurement mark exists on a school ruler BEFORE the 0mm mark? What was the light from your light bulb doing BEFORE you turned it on?

 

It's a difficult concept for people to grasp, this idea of total non-existence. They instinctively try to apply a Before and an Outside or a Into. But start with time: before time there was No Time. I'm not being funny, I'm saying ZERO TIME. E.g. anything that happened, all happened at once in ZERO TIME. A time singularity. A zero dimensional point on the spectrum of time.

 

It has interesting consequences: a particular happening - say the spontaneous eruption of a universe from some runaway quantum vacuum fluctuation that would take quintillions of years to happen by chance in OUR time-bound universe - would happen INSTANTLY in the zero-point field. But even that is not accurate: 'instantly' implies some form of time-reference. But it's a difficult concept to communicate in a language that by it's very nature inherently references time/space based concepts. That is why it is done in maths, where zero is very much zero and no debate can be entered into. Zero and Infinity are very interesting concepts to those with the intelligence to grasp their significance.

 

I cannot believe the big bang theory, I believe there has always been space and atoms, and they expand, then perhaps the big crush theory, then its too dense sonic explodes and expands, but not from a single dot.

 

You need only prove your theory, then, in the best scientific tradition.

 

The Big Bang theory has many faults, but it's saving grace is that it has LESS faults than other competing theories - such as yours. But we have other theories that explain much more and do so much better - but they await confirmation from experimental and observational science. E.g. coming up with a nice sounding idea is not enough - people will want proof.

 

Take our Sun, its big, in 5 million years it will expand past earth and Mars, then go super nova, and it starts again. I see the Universe as such, except over trillions of years, which again is hard to comprehend. How the massive space can be so stable is amazing. 

 

5 BILLION years. Space is not that stable either - it's changed it's form fundamentally at least 3 times, and possibly more, so far. The future could see it change again - such as proton decay, or  the 'Big Rip', or even cool down so far it could 'phase change' into some new form of space-time, or even quantum-tunnel into a new energy state.

 

One thing is for sure: we guess at some, but KNOW very little, and the universe has more in it that we can even guess at. 

 

 

 

 

I'm just wondering - how is this discussion/thread different from talking about religion - say reincarnation ... after reading about all these things I believe a lay person have a much higher chance in believing in reincarnation than I do a multiverse of sorts ... which it seems to all boil down to (right? besides computer simulation ie there is a God - has to be, by definition)


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  Reply # 1620132 31-Aug-2016 11:55
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joker97:

 

 

 

I'm just wondering - how is this discussion/thread different from talking about religion - say reincarnation ... after reading about all these things I believe a lay person have a much higher chance in believing in reincarnation than I do a multiverse of sorts ... which it seems to all boil down to (right? besides computer simulation ie there is a God - has to be, by definition)

 

 

 

 

Not a lot, one is based on theory of the unseen or unknown the other is based on faith in the unknown or unseen. It's probably down to a decimal point. Who knows there could be some omnipotent being out there laughing his/her

 

pants off at us trying to figure it out





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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 1620135 31-Aug-2016 11:59
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Newton’s ideas did a pretty good job of explaining what could be observed at the time in the solar system.  There was no theory, or even concept, of what we today regard as the Universe. Astronomers in Newton’s time were completely ignorant of it. Of course they could see the stars, but it wasn’t until Hubble that they even knew there were other galaxies than the Milky Way. As our knowledge expands, we have to keep looking for new ideas to explain what we think we observe. Once we began to become aware of the larger Universe, Newton didn’t work any more and we needed Einstein to make some sense of it. 

 

All of this comes through mathematics, which seems to work pretty well for a lot of things, but it doesn’t explain everything. Math is full of unknowns. A big one at the moment is dark energy. Another is dark matter. These are just ways of saying the calculations don’t make sense. They are concepts invented to fill holes in the math until someone figures out what we are doing wrong. 

 

What we think we understand is based on what we think we see. Until radio came along, we had no idea that background cosmic radiation even existed. So we invented the Big Bang to explain it. No doubt we will discover other things we don’t suspect at the moment, and a future picture of the nature of reality will be radically different from ours. Maybe one day we will bump up against the limits of our ability to comprehend, and will never be able to draw a picture of existence that accurately describes it. 

 

Talking about the beginning of time, or the boundaries of the Universe, or other dimensions, is useful and important work because it may lead to new insights, but such concepts only exist because we don’t really understand the nature of reality, and we therefore pose senseless questions about it, like what happened before time started, or what does the Universe look like from the outside.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 




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  Reply # 1620153 31-Aug-2016 12:31
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jpoc:

 

tdgeek:

 

Take our Sun, its big, in 5 million years it will expand past earth and Mars, then go super nova, and it starts again. I see the Universe as such, except over trillions of years, which again is hard to comprehend. How the massive space can be so stable is amazing. 

 

 

Oh dear what can you say to that?

 

We could have a competition to see how many errors there are in that one statement.

 

Here is my entry:

 

As has already been pointed out, the sun will enter the red giant phase in 5 billion years not 5 million.

 

In its red giant phase, the Sun will certainly expand out past the orbit of Venus.

 

It will most certainly not expand out as far as the orbit of Mars.

 

It will probably, but not certainly, expand out to reach the orbit of the Earth. We do not know. We have not been able to observe enough red giants in enough detail to actually be sure about that. The best estimate is that the Sun will just manage to consume the Earth but it might not.

 

The Sun will not ever go super nova. That exciting fate is reserved for stars many time the mass of our one.

 

Even when a massive star does go super nova, it is not part of a repeating cycle. What goes into a super massive star at the beginning is almost entirely hydrogen. What is left after a super nova can well be described as almost entirely not hydrogen.

 

As far as we can tell, our universe appears likely to continue to expand forever and not to fall back in some big crunch.

 

Dis I miss anything?

 

 

I meant 5 billion.


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  Reply # 1620167 31-Aug-2016 12:44
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Typos. The scourge of Geekzone.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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