Sweden to reintroduce conscription

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#1644039 2-Oct-2016 02:26

No doubt my 16 year old nephew will be gutted. His big Brothers escaped conscription as Sweden had just done away with it.
No longer will he be languishing on his sofa with his xbox. 2 years to go ;-)

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elpenguino

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#1646974 6-Oct-2016 22:12

Geektastic:

frankv:

Geektastic:
frankv:

elpenguino: You can't mention the IRA and terrorism in the same sentence.

Perhaps he means the terrorism inflicted on the irish by the British Govt?

Really? That's the best you can come up with?

No. But I don't have all day to sit around thinking up erudite and witty responses to your comments, so you'll just have to put up with an immediate off-the-cuff observation.

Last time I looked, terrorist atrocities was not really a subject commonly discussed in terms of "witty responses". I'm sure the relatives of the 1,800 or so civilians murdered by the PIRA rarely find much opportunity for wit when discussing it, that's for sure.

Sorry, i have been off-line for a while but your comment seems begging for a response. You mentioned you had family members serving in the forces in Ulster so you probably have an opinion formed in a particular way - you only mentioned the civilian casualties of one side of the troubles after all.

As a conversation starter: those PIRA types sound like real a-holes, why do you reckon they would do such things?

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

Fred99

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#1646997 6-Oct-2016 23:09

elpenguino:

Geektastic:

frankv:

Geektastic:
frankv:

elpenguino: You can't mention the IRA and terrorism in the same sentence.

Perhaps he means the terrorism inflicted on the irish by the British Govt?

Really? That's the best you can come up with?

No. But I don't have all day to sit around thinking up erudite and witty responses to your comments, so you'll just have to put up with an immediate off-the-cuff observation.

Last time I looked, terrorist atrocities was not really a subject commonly discussed in terms of "witty responses". I'm sure the relatives of the 1,800 or so civilians murdered by the PIRA rarely find much opportunity for wit when discussing it, that's for sure.

Sorry, i have been off-line for a while but your comment seems begging for a response. You mentioned you had family members serving in the forces in Ulster so you probably have an opinion formed in a particular way - you only mentioned the civilian casualties of one side of the troubles after all.

As a conversation starter: those PIRA types sound like real a-holes, why do you reckon they would do such things?

It also begs for a response, as the official body count I've seen says that:

The republican paramilitaries killed 723 civilians
The loyalist paramilitaries killed 878 civilians
The biggest toll of all 1080 was what the (P)IRA took on the British security forces.
The "security" forces managed to kill over 3 times as many republican vs loyalist paramilitaries.

On balance and numbers and stuff, that seems like a pretty fair fight to me, shame about the poor buggers who weren't really involved but got killed anyway, but there's millions of them from all over the world who don't get to say how annoying it is to be dead for no decent reason.

Geektastic

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#1647102 7-Oct-2016 10:12

Fred99:

elpenguino:

Geektastic:

frankv:

Geektastic:
frankv:

elpenguino: You can't mention the IRA and terrorism in the same sentence.

Perhaps he means the terrorism inflicted on the irish by the British Govt?

Really? That's the best you can come up with?

No. But I don't have all day to sit around thinking up erudite and witty responses to your comments, so you'll just have to put up with an immediate off-the-cuff observation.

Last time I looked, terrorist atrocities was not really a subject commonly discussed in terms of "witty responses". I'm sure the relatives of the 1,800 or so civilians murdered by the PIRA rarely find much opportunity for wit when discussing it, that's for sure.

Sorry, i have been off-line for a while but your comment seems begging for a response. You mentioned you had family members serving in the forces in Ulster so you probably have an opinion formed in a particular way - you only mentioned the civilian casualties of one side of the troubles after all.

As a conversation starter: those PIRA types sound like real a-holes, why do you reckon they would do such things?

It also begs for a response, as the official body count I've seen says that:

The republican paramilitaries killed 723 civilians
The loyalist paramilitaries killed 878 civilians
The biggest toll of all 1080 was what the (P)IRA took on the British security forces.
The "security" forces managed to kill over 3 times as many republican vs loyalist paramilitaries.

On balance and numbers and stuff, that seems like a pretty fair fight to me, shame about the poor buggers who weren't really involved but got killed anyway, but there's millions of them from all over the world who don't get to say how annoying it is to be dead for no decent reason.

According to the Conflict Archive on the Internet (CAIN), a research project at the University of Ulster, the Provisional IRA was responsible for the deaths of 1,823 people during the Troubles up to 2001.

elpenguino

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#1647115 7-Oct-2016 10:21

And every one of those would have a grieving family. So @Geektastic why do you think those people would do such things?

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

spk18

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#1647122 7-Oct-2016 10:33

I lived in Sweden, going to school there in the early 1990s when conscription was in place. To be fair, its nothing like what the negative connotations of the word suggest. It pretty much is mostly a finishing school for (in particular), Swedish males. Despite the whole equality of the sexes, the boys leaving school are often hopeless when it comes to looking after themselves (generalisation I know but a fair one at the time), their mothers tend to spoil in that respect. From memory it was extended to girls after I left, then done away with entirely. My friends that did it used their language skills in listening stations, culinary skills in terms of cooking and learnt trades and other skills. It was almost like a fully funded polytechnic of sorts. At least when the boys came out they knew how to look after themselves - it placed them in good stead for university or other training. Most of them loved it - mates of mine that did it are now doctors, IT specialists and the like. For the effectiveness of a trained militia, see the effects the Swedish volunteers and the Finns had on the Russians during WW2. My host family's father (I was an exchange student) was one such volunteer on skis - they really did a number on the Russians who had overwhelming numbers and armaments. Fascinating area of history actually.

networkn

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#1647194 7-Oct-2016 11:45

MikeB4:

I do not believe that Russia is a threat to greater Europe. They are just posturing in the same manner as the US is, childish games.

Yeah, I agree, it's weird. Do they think Russia will invade other countries? I can't see it really, they would know it would start world war almost certainly, and Russia is unlikely to want another region badly enough to risk a costly war.

BTR

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#1647209 7-Oct-2016 11:58

Hammerer:

MikeB4:

I do not believe that Russia is a threat to greater Europe. They are just posturing in the same manner as the US is, childish games.

I believe that Russia is a threat because it scores highly on many risk factors such as:

authoritarian regime with totalitarian tendencies
increasing state control of media
increasing limitation of human rights
election rigging and elimination of political opponents by legal and illegal means
a recent record of military intervention (e.g. Ukraine, Syria)
a national narrative that emphasises power and recovery of past empire
etc.

You have also just described the US

authoritarian regime with totalitarian tendencies ( War on drugs and terrorism)
increasing state control of media ( US news outlets are very much govt controlled )
increasing limitation of human rights ( Black lives matters, lack of gay marriage)
election rigging and elimination of political opponents by legal and illegal means ( Florida voting ring any bells)
a recent record of military intervention (e.g. Ukraine, Syria) ( Syria, Libya, Iraq.... the list goes on here)
a national narrative that emphasises power and recovery of past empire ( Trump wants to make america great again what ever that means )

The US is the bully poking the stick waiting for other nations to stand up and defend themselves just so they can start another war. While Russia does have their flaws they are minding their own business a lot more than the US is.

networkn

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#1647214 7-Oct-2016 12:02

BTR:

You have also just described the US

authoritarian regime with totalitarian tendencies ( War on drugs and terrorism)
increasing state control of media ( US news outlets are very much govt controlled )
increasing limitation of human rights ( Black lives matters, lack of gay marriage)
election rigging and elimination of political opponents by legal and illegal means ( Florida voting ring any bells)
a recent record of military intervention (e.g. Ukraine, Syria) ( Syria, Libya, Iraq.... the list goes on here)
a national narrative that emphasises power and recovery of past empire ( Trump wants to make america great again what ever that means )
The US is the bully poking the stick waiting for other nations to stand up and defend themselves just so they can start another war. While Russia does have their flaws they are minding their own business a lot more than the US is.

I am quite sure the USA would be pretty content to "mind their own business" but as the world's largest economy and arguably the largest military force in the world, whenever trouble brews anywhere in the world, what happens? People look to the USA to use it's resources to intervene.

When was the last time NZ threw it's hat in the ring to step up?

People are pretty quick to criticise America and Americans, but whilst they are far from perfect, I think they get a fairly bum rap.

frankv

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#1647217 7-Oct-2016 12:05

networkn:

Do they think Russia will invade other countries? I can't see it really, they would know it would start world war almost certainly, and Russia is unlikely to want another region badly enough to risk a costly war.

They have invaded Ukraine, which *is* another country. No-one seems to care very much.

networkn

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#1647218 7-Oct-2016 12:09

frankv:

networkn:

Do they think Russia will invade other countries? I can't see it really, they would know it would start world war almost certainly, and Russia is unlikely to want another region badly enough to risk a costly war.

They have invaded Ukraine, which *is* another country. No-one seems to care very much.

There is a LOT of debate about why that occurred but a Ukrainian I spend a lot of time with is very clear that it was at the behest of the majority of Ukrainians who wanted this. I can't argue to the validity of it, but there seems some evidence to support the invasion.

frankv

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#1647219 7-Oct-2016 12:15

networkn:

I am quite sure the USA would be pretty content to "mind their own business" but as the world's largest economy and arguably the largest military force in the world, whenever trouble brews anywhere in the world, what happens? People look to the USA to use it's resources to intervene.

People are pretty quick to criticise America and Americans, but whilst they are far from perfect, I think they get a fairly bum rap.

Riiiighht...

Grenada
Nicaragua
Panama
Chile
El Salvador
Haiti
Libya

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html

The engine of American foreign policy has been fueled not by a devotion to any kind of morality, but rather by the necessity to serve other imperatives, which can be summarized as follows:

* making the world safe for American corporations;

* enhancing the financial statements of defense contractors at home who have contributed generously to members of congress;

* preventing the rise of any society that might serve as a successful example of an alternative to the capitalist model;

* extending political and economic hegemony over as wide an area as possible, as befits a "great power."

This in the name of fighting a supposed moral crusade against what cold warriors convinced themselves, and the American people, was the existence of an evil International Communist Conspiracy, which in fact never existed, evil or not.

When was the last time NZ threw it's hat in the ring to step up?

Syria, I believe. If not Syria, then Iraq. And Afghanistan.

networkn

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#1647224 7-Oct-2016 12:22

frankv:

Riiiighht...

Grenada
Nicaragua
Panama
Chile
El Salvador
Haiti
Libya
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html

Ok and what state would those countries/the world be in now if there hadn't of been military intervention of the US?

The engine of American foreign policy has been fueled not by a devotion to any kind of morality, but rather by the necessity to serve other imperatives, which can be summarized as follows: * making the world safe for American corporations; * enhancing the financial statements of defense contractors at home who have contributed generously to members of congress; * preventing the rise of any society that might serve as a successful example of an alternative to the capitalist model; * extending political and economic hegemony over as wide an area as possible, as befits a "great power." This in the name of fighting a supposed moral crusade against what cold warriors convinced themselves, and the American people, was the existence of an evil International Communist Conspiracy, which in fact never existed, evil or not.

Gee that doesn't sound biased at ALL :)

Syria, I believe. If not Syria, then Iraq. And Afghanistan.

Umm, was NZ in the first group of forces to attend? No, we came in behind in a "peace-keeping role". Would NZ have been there without the USA, hell no. No chance.

I am not saying the USA doesn't get any benefit from it's interventions, but there are benefits to a fair number of countries when they intervene. Who would step up if it wasn't for the US? It's an inconvenient truth that people love to ignore when they ignorantly criticise the USA in my opinion.

To be honest, the MAJORITY of people I know who are most critical of the US (and use the oldest and most worn out Cliches) are the ones who have never been. I am guilty of it, from my younger days, my sister I know has a VERY different view of the US since her visit. I know a LOT of people who feel very differently now.

Rikkitic

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#1647239 7-Oct-2016 12:47

I lived in the USA for many years. I spent my youth there. Of course it is not the epitome of evil. Of course most Americans are good and decent people. But I would never choose to live there again. There is just too much wrong with the place. One of the things that is wrong is the idiotic idea many Americans have that they are somehow morally superior to everyone else and their country is the best place in the world. The nasty nonsense of American Exceptionalism. The appalling ignorance and utter disinterest most people have regarding the rest of the world. The obsession with guns and the violence that goes with that. The overwhelming shallowness and superficiality. And many, many other things. Contrasting this is excellence in the arts and sciences, unique innovative and entrepreneurial abilities, enormous economic and technological resources and so on. Like all countries America is many things, but on balance it is not a place I want to be.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

MikeB4

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#1647242 7-Oct-2016 12:55

The Russians have been coming for decades in fact since the 19th century yet they never have. Most of the fortifications around NZ coast was for the Russian threat.

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