People's dress sense/standards at work

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# 1646002 5-Oct-2016 16:10

RUKI:

Fred99:

........ I was simply being a pedant about correct english in a thread about dress standards, where pedantry seems to be part of the show.

I think that (fewer/less) is a mistake made more often in written english than spoken.

I've set myself up of course - I truly don't care enough to make sure I don't make similar mistakes.

My English is second. I would've thought that word [English] should start from the capital letter twice in the quote above .. sorry for off-topic

You're quite correct. It wasn't really a typo either - I typed it "english" and it didn't get underlined in my spell checker, so I ignored it then typed it incorrectly a second time.

Geektastic

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# 1646027 5-Oct-2016 16:47

networkn:

dejadeadnz:

I find NZ men's dress/grooming standards to be some of the poorest that I have seen.

You make an interesting point. To some degree I think that comes somewhat from our farming and agricultural and casual laid back persona, the only factor I consider to be moderately significant, is the cost of clothing here. For example, I buy and wear non-iron good quality name brand shirts. Here those shirts are between $90 and $220 each, and in the US I buy them for $23USD. Levi's here are between 80-200 as well, depending on Style, in the USA I buy my Levi's for $25-40 USD each.

Interestingly, recently spending time in Germany and Spain the cost of clothing there SHOCKED me. SO expensive.

Obviously, this doesn't address the stained, poorly cleaned and non-ironed clothes thing.

For some reason I have never managed to ascertain, there is a 10% duty applied to imported clothes and shoes in addition to GST. Mad, since we probably import over 90% of our clothes and shoes, but there we are.

Fred99

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# 1646120 5-Oct-2016 20:24

Geektastic:

For some reason I have never managed to ascertain, there is a 10% duty applied to imported clothes and shoes in addition to GST. Mad, since we probably import over 90% of our clothes and shoes, but there we are.

If you look at "what's my duty" etc, then there's 10% duty applied on all shoes. Is this what they actually charge in all cases by default?

Actual tariffs applied should depend on country of origin, at the moment there's a standard 10% duty but preferential tariffs:

Supposed to be duty free from China and HK since the start of 2016.

Free from more or less the rest of Asia (except Korea) from the start of 2018

Duty free from Korea in 2021, apparently, reducing each year in the meantime.

Childrens shoes (under size 9 1/2) are duty free - so are ski-boots and gumboots by the way.

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# 1646169 5-Oct-2016 21:07

I bought a few shoes from Amazon and was never asked to pay duty - even though the parcels clearly say "Shoes" or "Clothing".

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BlinkyBill

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# 1646195 5-Oct-2016 21:16

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freitasm:
I bought a few shoes from Amazon and was never asked to pay duty - even though the parcels clearly say "Shoes" or "Clothing".

Maybe the duty only applies to pairs of shoes haw haw haw.

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# 1646196 5-Oct-2016 21:17

Fred99:

Geektastic:

For some reason I have never managed to ascertain, there is a 10% duty applied to imported clothes and shoes in addition to GST. Mad, since we probably import over 90% of our clothes and shoes, but there we are.

If you look at "what's my duty" etc, then there's 10% duty applied on all shoes. Is this what they actually charge in all cases by default?

Actual tariffs applied should depend on country of origin, at the moment there's a standard 10% duty but preferential tariffs:

Supposed to be duty free from China and HK since the start of 2016.

Free from more or less the rest of Asia (except Korea) from the start of 2018

Duty free from Korea in 2021, apparently, reducing each year in the meantime.

Childrens shoes (under size 9 1/2) are duty free - so are ski-boots and gumboots by the way.

Yes it is a flat rate on any imported shoes or clothes.

Yes the free trade agreements will slowly remove it, although no government Minister I have asked has managed to explain why it exists at all.

Of course, retailers will not reduce prices by 10% - they will just scalp 10% extra plus the 100+% markup they add now.

TwoSeven

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# 1646230 5-Oct-2016 22:10

networkn:

Rikkitic:

networkn:

Walk into a retail store in a suit. Walk in the following day in Jeans and a Hoodie. See what a difference it makes. Translate that to corporate. It affects performance. (maybe not of the person wearing the clothes directly but in how they are perceived and therefore treated which often translates to results).

I accept that. My argument would be that we should move beyond that kind of superficiality and a way to start doing that is to abandon pointless dress codes.

I disagree. I think dressing professionally is part of being professional.

Who is defining what professional is.

If I put my feminist hat on and look at things from an equality point of view, it could be said that dress codes might be used as a tool to force people to conform to mainstream values. So what does that do for diversity and for those that identify with different genders or personal views.

Perhaps we call it corporate culture, but maybe its just a form of sexism. I can only imagine that if the arguments are a long the line of 'men must wear a specific type of uniform because of xyz need for conformity', that the same argument must in some form also be present for women as well. If we have a perception of how a group of people must conform or align to a standard, then I would ask, how do we perceive those that for whatever reason don't conform.

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Fred99

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# 1646437 6-Oct-2016 10:34

Geektastic:

Yes it is a flat rate on any imported shoes or clothes.

Yes the free trade agreements will slowly remove it, although no government Minister I have asked has managed to explain why it exists at all.

Of course, retailers will not reduce prices by 10% - they will just scalp 10% extra plus the 100+% markup they add now.

That's a sad reflection on those government ministers general knowledge.

They remain at a low level - except where they've been eliminated due to concessions from multi and bilateral FTA agreements that NZ has signed up to (including a schedule of unilateral commitments which NZ may have made when negotiating things like GATT). There are some other concessions - ie for developing countries where granting tariff-free access was seen as a form of aid.

The (once very high) tariffs were there to protect local industry from lower-cost imported competition, and to reduce overall import trade volumes in order to control foreign exchange / balance of payments. Eliminating those tariffs overnight would have destroyed those local businesses overnight, so the process of gradual reduction was supposed to allow them to "adapt" over a longer period of time. We're coming to the end of that process, remaining tariffs are so very low that they're almost symbolic, though I suppose there's hope that removing the hundred dollar or so tariff on each pair of jimmy choo pumps presently sold to a Housewife of Auckland (tm) will mean that Mr Jimmy Choo himself will be petitioning the UK and Euro governments to drop all tariffs and quotas on NZ butter, we'll drop our 10% tariff on his shoes, and by the process of "trickle down" of the vast wealth from farmers, we'll all be able to afford his fine products - including me, at least if I want to go to parties in full drag again, and Jimmy would be so kind to make available his fine products in Euro mens size 43. If he makes them with steel caps and in a selection of colours complementing "Hard Yakka" brand overalls, I'll buy two pairs.

And how did that all work? In the case of making shoes, probably not very well. I think there is only one significant shoe manufacturer left (McKinlays) in Dunedin. If there are any others, they'll probably be very small cottage industry or perhaps there are high-end bespoke shoe makers. I'm not sure how McKinlays survived, I guess there's some brand loyalty and they're a niche product which is reasonably distinctive.

MikeAqua

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# 1647231 7-Oct-2016 12:42

TwoSeven:

If I put my feminist hat on and look at things from an equality point of view, it could be said that dress codes might be used as a tool to force people to conform to mainstream values. So what does that do for diversity and for those that identify with different genders or personal views.

Perhaps we call it corporate culture, but maybe its just a form of sexism.

If a dress standard cannot be reasonably adhered to (cost, availability, sizes etc) by people of one sex then it could reasonable be described as sexist. However, if it can be reasonably adhered to by both sexes then it's not sexist.

Generally my observation is that women have more choice in work clothing than men. I've worked in a dozen workplaces over the last 20 odd years and I have only seen three occasions where people have had to be formally spoken to about their presentation. One was a guy who was just a slob. 2 were female receptionists. In all cases we are talking about extreme choices.

A well written dress standard will be a unisex standard and not vulnerable to accusations of discrimination.

In an earlier post I paraphrased from such a standard in one place I worked.

Mike

Fred99

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# 1647324 7-Oct-2016 14:29

I agree that women (in an office / business workplace) have more choice than men, but I don't think that makes life any easier or less expensive - quite the reverse.

When I was working as an employee, it was pretty easy really (except when I was doing tech visits and needed to take change of clothes etc). Look at wardrobe - select shirt, select tie, select the black shoes, try not to slosh coffee on shirt or dunk tie in sauce for 8 hours, go home, repeat tomorrow.

SWMBO seems to take forever, then can't make up her mind and (heaven forbid) asks for my opinion. If I say she looks great, she immediately goes and gets changed again. I give up.

networkn

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# 1647326 7-Oct-2016 14:33

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Fred99:

I agree that women (in an office / business workplace) have more choice than men, but I don't think that makes life any easier or less expensive - quite the reverse.

When I was working as an employee, it was pretty easy really (except when I was doing tech visits and needed to take change of clothes etc). Look at wardrobe - select shirt, select tie, select the black shoes, try not to slosh coffee on shirt or dunk tie in sauce for 8 hours, go home, repeat tomorrow.

SWMBO seems to take forever, then can't make up her mind and (heaven forbid) asks for my opinion. If I say she looks great, she immediately goes and gets changed again. I give up.

Not directing this at your significant other, but is the fact this occurs anyone's problem but their own? It's certainly not a reason not to have dress codes at work I don't think. I know a lady who wears the same outfits day in and day out, they are very smart, she owns a few of everything and every couple of years throws it all out. About the only difference in what she wears day to day is the colour of the scarfy thing she wears, which she admits to having dozens of.

MikeAqua

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# 1647332 7-Oct-2016 14:41

Fred99:

I agree that women (in an office / business workplace) have more choice than men, but I don't think that makes life any easier or less expensive - quite the reverse.

When I was working as an employee, it was pretty easy really (except when I was doing tech visits and needed to take change of clothes etc). Look at wardrobe - select shirt, select tie, select the black shoes, try not to slosh coffee on shirt or dunk tie in sauce for 8 hours, go home, repeat tomorrow.

SWMBO seems to take forever, then can't make up her mind and (heaven forbid) asks for my opinion. If I say she looks great, she immediately goes and gets changed again. I give up.

I've noticed the same. But again it's all choice. Women can buy expensive or cheap clothing and make their wardrobe as simple or complicated as they wish.

Women's clothes are more expensive, because the market is willing to pay that much. Choice.

Mike

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# 1647345 7-Oct-2016 15:10

Geektastic:

Of course, retailers will not reduce prices by 10% - they will just scalp 10% extra plus the 100+% markup they add now.

When clothing retailers have 70% sales, they are not giving away clothes. The markup is usually 300+%.

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Fred99

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# 1647357 7-Oct-2016 15:35

networkn:

Not directing this at your significant other, but is the fact this occurs anyone's problem but their own? It's certainly not a reason not to have dress codes at work I don't think. I know a lady who wears the same outfits day in and day out, they are very smart, she owns a few of everything and every couple of years throws it all out. About the only difference in what she wears day to day is the colour of the scarfy thing she wears, which she admits to having dozens of.

That (wearing the same outfit day in and out) would not cut it where she works / at the level she works.
Sorry to disagree with you, but that's the way it is. That's also in an organisation where ~50% of the senior managers are women.
Women are judged on how they look - and judged more harshly than men are. Sad fact - but also very true.

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# 1647372 7-Oct-2016 15:52

Fred99:

That (wearing the same outfit day in and out) would not cut it where she works / at the level she works.
Sorry to disagree with you, but that's the way it is. That's also in an organisation where ~50% of the senior managers are women.
Women are judged on how they look - and judged more harshly than men are. Sad fact - but also very true.

I asked my wife and she does not agree, she believes there are some industries where that maybe the case eg Fashion retail but generally no. She pointed out at one large blue multi national IT corp she worked

for the opposite was the case where men were judged more harshly. She wears suits 5 days per week and only when working from home does she wear casual.

Dress codes that I have drafted and enforced have been applied equally across genders.

Mike
Retired IT Manager.
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

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