People's dress sense/standards at work

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Reply # 1645089 4-Oct-2016 10:30

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MikeB4:

Fred99:

gzt: The vast majority of NZ schools are not particularly focused on dress standards. Most parents would find it a bit silly and annoying if that was the case. That may explain some of the differences in expectation. Short answer, it's a Kiwi thing.

My understanding is that the quaint concept of school uniforms has survived to this day for only a few reasons:

Snobbery value (as in the case of schools for children of the the well-to-do)
Fund-raising (in the case of the official uniform supply rort)
Expectation that it promotes some kind of "team" or "military" pride concept.

Very false assumptions that high-school age children would either go completely wild if there weren't uniforms or at least strict dress codes, or that kids would turn up in expensive designer clothes to flaunt wealth - some kind of socialist "leveler" thing - which even if it had merit - is completely futile. By about age 8 kids know what mommy dropping them off at the gates in a Porsche Cayenne GTS - means.

Our son went to high school where there weren't any dress code rules at all. Surprisingly few "went wild" - almost all just wore the normal clothes that teenagers wear. A very few had plenty of body piercings and wore some pretty radical teenage fashion (none of which ever offended me in the slightest), but as that had zero shock-impact and there was no need to "rebel" against a rule that didn't exist, there wasn't any problem for which a rule might have been needed.

I think your assumed reasons for uniforms in NZ are wrong, period.

Then please explain what you think the reasons could be.

(apart from "inertia" - hanging on to concepts from the past because it's "part of culture - just the way it is, always was, so is the way it should be")

MikeB4

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Reply # 1645093 4-Oct-2016 10:35

Fred99:

MikeB4:

Fred99:

gzt: The vast majority of NZ schools are not particularly focused on dress standards. Most parents would find it a bit silly and annoying if that was the case. That may explain some of the differences in expectation. Short answer, it's a Kiwi thing.

My understanding is that the quaint concept of school uniforms has survived to this day for only a few reasons:

Snobbery value (as in the case of schools for children of the the well-to-do)
Fund-raising (in the case of the official uniform supply rort)
Expectation that it promotes some kind of "team" or "military" pride concept.

Very false assumptions that high-school age children would either go completely wild if there weren't uniforms or at least strict dress codes, or that kids would turn up in expensive designer clothes to flaunt wealth - some kind of socialist "leveler" thing - which even if it had merit - is completely futile. By about age 8 kids know what mommy dropping them off at the gates in a Porsche Cayenne GTS - means.

Our son went to high school where there weren't any dress code rules at all. Surprisingly few "went wild" - almost all just wore the normal clothes that teenagers wear. A very few had plenty of body piercings and wore some pretty radical teenage fashion (none of which ever offended me in the slightest), but as that had zero shock-impact and there was no need to "rebel" against a rule that didn't exist, there wasn't any problem for which a rule might have been needed.

I think your assumed reasons for uniforms in NZ are wrong, period.

Then please explain what you think the reasons could be.

(apart from "inertia" - hanging on to concepts from the past because it's "part of culture - just the way it is, always was, so is the way it should be")

1. cost effective

2. Team spirit (this is actually a good thing it teaches cooperation and socialbility)

3. Security

4. removing competition with clothing and alienation of those who are from back grounds that cannot afford the latest and greatest.

5. ability for schools to provide the uniform both new and used.

6. teachers kids that there is times and circumstances in life that standards are required and rules are to follow.

Mike
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sen8or

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Reply # 1645094 4-Oct-2016 10:40

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Whilst the initial purchase of a school uniform may seem expensive (my daughters high school uniform set us back +/- $800 or so), it will be good for several years and provides the school with a consistent image and standard with the students.

It also removes any competition or elitism from within the school. I know years ago parents successfully petitioned a popular Auckland primary school to introduce a uniform as the level of "keeping up with the joneses" was at a stupid level and parents were spending too much on school clothes for appearances sake. Decile 10 first world problems for sure, but it helps keep things balanced.

martyyn

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Reply # 1645095 4-Oct-2016 10:40

Linuxluver:

gzt: The vast majority of NZ schools are not particularly focused on dress standards. Most parents would find it a bit silly and annoying if that was the case. That may explain some of the differences in expectation. Short answer, it's a Kiwi thing.

Schools not focused on dress standards?

Try not wearing the uniform....or the wrong colour of socks.

(School uniforms are a bizarre 'religious' statement of faith in stuff that mostly isn't true......and big waste of money.)

^^ THIS !!

School uniforms for colleges are a MASSIVE fund raiser. I never cease to be amazed at the price they charge for cheap, nasty and outdated materials. My sons sports kit was $55 for the shirt alone and $35 for the shorts. Yet it's the crappiest polyester you have ever seen. In fact you would see it in a $2 shop and think it was overpriced.

School jackets. $250 plus for something which barely keeps the rain off. We have a Kathmandu outlet just up the road where you can buy the $400+ jackets for $100 ;) But we're not allowed to buy them because in the college's own words 'they aren't official school uniform'. By official they mean they don't have a kick back.

Don't get me started on school shoes !

martyyn

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Reply # 1645097 4-Oct-2016 10:44

sen8or: It also removes any competition or elitism from within the school.

No, that's left to the mobiles and BYOD devices they bring.

If your child is going to school and showing 'competition and elitism' in what they where you are failing as a parent.

Rikkitic

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Reply # 1645099 4-Oct-2016 10:48

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dejadeadnz:

Look, you go on and on about freedom of choice/people's individual freedom. But I love how you seem to have no regard for the standards of a workplace that an individual freely signs up to work at, nor the consequences for other colleagues were an individual to be perceived as inappropriately (or culturally offensively) underdressed when meeting clients, for example. As usual with a lot of your arguments, it's just all about what you like.

You bet it’s about what I like. Why should I argue for something I don’t like? I don’t work now but when I did I would never have worked for any place that insisted on ridiculous dress requirements and I never did.

So what is a ridiculous dress requirement? I have seen examples of many organisations, business and public service, where some jumped-up minor tyrant insists that everyone wear a particular kind of clothing just because he thinks that is how it should be. People with little imagination or actual ability are often the ones who push this kind of thing. They hope that making a lot of noise about appearances will hide the fact that they are not actually very useful for anything.

When I worked I did not have to comply with any particular dress standard because I was an outside contractor. I would dress up for meetings because it would have been insulting not to. I am not arguing that everyone should look like a slob. As I have already repeatedly stated, I don’t mind what people wear as long as it is reasonable. I do believe there should be standards, just not standards of uniformity. My objection is to expectations that everyone should look exactly the same and that those who don’t are somehow letting the side down. This is a silly, archaic way of thinking that has no place in the modern world and fortunately is gradually dying out.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage

frankv

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Reply # 1645104 4-Oct-2016 11:02

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sen8or:

I know years ago parents successfully petitioned a popular Auckland primary school to introduce a uniform as the level of "keeping up with the joneses" was at a stupid level and parents were spending too much on school clothes for appearances sake.

I suggest it would have been better for the parents to (a) teach their children that judging by appearances (and therefore clothing) is stupid, and (b) decide themselves how much to spend on their children's school clothes.

Fred99

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Reply # 1645106 4-Oct-2016 11:04

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MikeB4:

1. cost effective

2. Team spirit (this is actually a good thing it teaches cooperation and socialbility)

3. Security

4. removing competition with clothing and alienation of those who are from back grounds that cannot afford the latest and greatest.

5. ability for schools to provide the uniform both new and used.

6. teachers kids that there is times and circumstances in life that standards are required and rules are to follow.

1. School uniforms are expensive - more expensive than equivalent clothes bought at retailer. Much more expensive in some cases (blazers etc).

2. "Team spirit" should never come at the cost of suppressing individuality IMO, even if it works for the military, maccas etc. As I said, when given relatively "free reign" - most kids conform anyway. Of those who don't, perhaps better not to crush them into conforming - again IMO - it's just that I see that some of the most talented, valuable, successful, and contributing members of society happen to be non-conformists.

3. "Security"? Not sure what you mean here - that a potential schoolyard killer might be thwarted by not having a uniform?

4. Removing competition that way is incredibly dumb - as I said by the time kids are 8 they know where they sit in the socio-economic ladder. It also backfires - a friend's daughter recounted how she had to wear a white blouse as part of the uniform, these could be bought at an exclusive retailer for $150 or at Postie Plus for about $20. The girls would flip back collars to check the label. It's wild fantasy to think school uniforms reduce - let alone "remove" class divisions.

5. That "ability" is about fundraising. <Source - school board involvement and discussion with neighbour who supplied school uniforms>

6. Encourages that "rules are rules" which shouldn't be questioned. Yes - that's how some people like it.

frankv

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Reply # 1645127 4-Oct-2016 11:07

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MikeB4:

6. teachers kids that there is times and circumstances in life that standards are required and rules are to follow.

i.e. instills conformity and compliance and authoritarianism so that when they go out to work, they will accept the same kinds of nonsensical rules.

Fred99

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Reply # 1645129 4-Oct-2016 11:11

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sen8or:

It also removes any competition or elitism from within the school.

Not in your wildest dreams does it do this.

Perhaps it's my ability to remember intricate details of school "sociology" where regardless of uniform, the children are extremely capable of organising a "social order" of their own.
That's even before mommy and daddy do helicopter maneuvers, so they're comfortable that their kids are socialising with the "right kind of people".

DarthKermit

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Reply # 1645133 4-Oct-2016 11:18

I'm not sure how people can consider school uniforms to be good value for money. The school is asking a manufacturer to do a small production run of perhaps several hundred up to a thousand of some school branded clothing items (depending on the school size).

There's no real economy of scale in such a small run.

MikeB4

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Reply # 1645138 4-Oct-2016 11:22

Fred99:

MikeB4:

1. cost effective

2. Team spirit (this is actually a good thing it teaches cooperation and socialbility)

3. Security

4. removing competition with clothing and alienation of those who are from back grounds that cannot afford the latest and greatest.

5. ability for schools to provide the uniform both new and used.

6. teachers kids that there is times and circumstances in life that standards are required and rules are to follow.

1. School uniforms are expensive - more expensive than equivalent clothes bought at retailer. Much more expensive in some cases (blazers etc).

2. "Team spirit" should never come at the cost of suppressing individuality IMO, even if it works for the military, maccas etc. As I said, when given relatively "free reign" - most kids conform anyway. Of those who don't, perhaps better not to crush them into conforming - again IMO - it's just that I see that some of the most talented, valuable, successful, and contributing members of society happen to be non-conformists.

3. "Security"? Not sure what you mean here - that a potential schoolyard killer might be thwarted by not having a uniform?

4. Removing competition that way is incredibly dumb - as I said by the time kids are 8 they know where they sit in the socio-economic ladder. It also backfires - a friend's daughter recounted how she had to wear a white blouse as part of the uniform, these could be bought at an exclusive retailer for $150 or at Postie Plus for about $20. The girls would flip back collars to check the label. It's wild fantasy to think school uniforms reduce - let alone "remove" class divisions.

5. That "ability" is about fundraising. <Source - school board involvement and discussion with neighbour who supplied school uniforms>

6. Encourages that "rules are rules" which shouldn't be questioned. Yes - that's how some people like it.

you go your way with this I will go mine

Mike
Retired IT Manager.
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

martyyn

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Reply # 1645142 4-Oct-2016 11:24

DarthKermit:

I'm not sure how people can consider school uniforms to be good value for money. The school is asking a manufacturer to do a small production run of perhaps several hundred up to a thousand of some school branded clothing items (depending on the school size).

There's no real economy of scale in such a small run.

Really ?

You've obviously not bought branded clothing recently. I do it regularly for some of my clients and have done it for years for football clubs. Having logo's put onto t-shirts, polo's, fleeces, hats etc is peanuts compared to what the schools charge.

My boys college use the exact same clothing you can buy for any college, they just have a little school label sown onto the clothing showing the college name and logo. After having spent over $800 last year for just the basics we've decided to just buy the non-branded stuff at less than half the price, cut the label off the old and stitch it onto the new. He's year 9 this year and grows out of pretty much everything in 6 months.

SaltyNZ

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Reply # 1645151 4-Oct-2016 11:33

frankv:

i.e. instills conformity and compliance and authoritarianism so that when they go out to work, they will accept the same kinds of nonsensical rules.

Yeah, but, how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

Fred99

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Reply # 1645163 4-Oct-2016 12:00

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MikeB4:

you go your way with this I will go mine

Yes - I have no expectation that rational debate ever influences conservative values much. Lest those damned iconoclastic liberals start demolishing all kinds of precious things which are rationally indefensible.

My view is that individuals shouldn't be "forced" to conform, unless their actions threaten in some tangible way or interfere with the freedom of others to do what they like. School isn't really optional in this country, so it's not the same as uniforms at work, on the sport field etc. It's pointless and anachronistic - long past it's use-by date, in my opinion of course.

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