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  # 1675801 23-Nov-2016 08:38
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JimmyH:

 

PhantomNVD:

And yet a lot of "Science" IS religion (by definition) as in many cases it's based on faith in scientific theories.
Much of it IS proveable (and reproduceable) but much is also 'current best guess' theorisation, and Science is, and MUST always be, open to correction as very few things are irrefutable and new information consistently arises and changes the basis in which the facts are interpreted.

The flat earth theory was a worldwide "FACT" for most of history, and likely totally uncontestable in scientific circles, but still turned out to be patently rediculous in the end.

 

Ummmm ..... no. Any decent scientist knows that proper scientific theory is just simply the best available explanation for the available data, and a proper scientific theory is falsifiable and will be replaced if data inconsistent with that theory comes along, which means that it has to be jettisoned and a better theory found. No theory is a fact, and no proper scientist has a blind religious, or quasi-religious, faith in a theory as being some kind of holy writ.

 

 

Fundamentally, science is based on an irrational belief that things can be explained based on observation. Religion, OTOH, is based on an irrational belief that things can NOT be explained based on observation. The two can perhaps coexist if you believe (irrationally) that most things can be explained, but there are occasional miracles or other things that can never be explained. If you believe (irrationally) that all things that can be explained, then there is no room for God or the supernatural... everything is "natural".

 

 

Coming back on topic, I consider that Tamaki is a boorish oaf, and his comments are nutty and repugnant. However, I also favour free speech, so I don't favour using State coercion or the threat of tax bills to censor speech just because I find it stomach churning. There are examples of governments that behave like that, both present and past, and it never seems to end well. Destiny is a church, albeit a somewhat nutty one. But it should be treated the same as other churches (either all of them are taxed or none of them are), and it's treatment shouldn't change just because it's leader is a boorish demagogue.

 

 

I'm all in favour of free speech and freedom of religion and so on. I don't even care very much that Tamaki is a boorish oaf... there's plenty of those around. What I do object to is that Tamaki is scamming a fortune off poor people, using his "religion" as a front.

 

 


sxz

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  # 1675806 23-Nov-2016 08:43
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frankv:

 

 

 

Fundamentally, science is based on an irrational belief that things can be explained based on observation. Religion, OTOH, is based on an irrational belief that things can NOT be explained based on observation. The two can perhaps coexist if you believe (irrationally) that most things can be explained, but there are occasional miracles or other things that can never be explained. If you believe (irrationally) that all things that can be explained, then there is no room for God or the supernatural... everything is "natural".

 

 

 

 

So no room for rational thought huh?


 
 
 
 


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  # 1675817 23-Nov-2016 09:00
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sbiddle:

 

MikeB4: I can tell you from someone who has worked in social services both professionally and volunteer NZ would heavily screwed if it were not for the church based and other charity groups. I get very angry at some of the uninformed posts on this subject and they lead me to believe they are by folks that have little idea of what these organisations do and even what a charity is.

Some folks really need to get the blinkers off and and have a real look around them.

With that flame away at me

 

Should Sanitarium have to pay tax?

 

 

 

 

 

 

You tell me....

 

 

 

 

 

"Sanitarium Health & Wellbeing Company was established by the Seventh-day Adventist Church in New Zealand over 100 years ago to promote and produce plant-based health foods. This is based on the Church's belief that plant-based diets are designated by God, our Creator, for the health of the human race.1 Worldwide, the Church operates health food industries and health-care services based on this philosophy.

 

Sanitarium’s enduring mission is to “inspire and resource our community to experience happy, healthy lives”. As such the Seventh-day Adventist Church and Sanitarium continue to share an explicit common reason and purpose of existence.

 

Sanitarium is a leader in producing foods of the highest nutritional value and appeal. The Sanitarium Nutrition Service provids unbiased advice to our consumers. This service dates back to the early 1900s, when cooking classes and nutrition lectures were held throughout New Zealand. 

 

In relation to Sanitarium's tax status, it is important to note:

 

  •  

    Sanitarium is 100% New Zealand owned and proud to be a part of New Zealand’s essential charitable sector.

     

  •  

    Sanitarium operates exclusively for charitable purposes in New Zealand

     

  •  

    As an organisation that operates as a charity Sanitarium is exempt from certain business income taxes. It pays all other forms of tax that apply to New Zealand companies.

     

  •  

    Sanitarium does not hold a preferential position as a consequence of it charitable taxation status.

     

  •  

    Income tax exemptions are available to all companies and individuals in New Zealand who limit themselves to charitable purposes, are registered as charities and otherwise qualify for such exemptions.

     

  •  

    Sanitarium contributes to New Zealand’s economy through the employment of more than 250 employees throughout New Zealand including at its factory and head office in Auckland.

     

  •  

    Sanitarium invests in the promotion of community health and wellbeing through the annual Weet-Bix Kids TRYathlon, which over 300,000 children have participated in throughout the 24 years of the series

     

  •  

    Sanitarium helps kids get the good start they deserve with the Kick Start Breakfast Club, presented in partnership with Fonterra. Sanitarium provides free school breakfasts to over 890 New Zealand schools in a community partnership model, with more than 125,000 breakfasts provided each week.

     

  •  

    Through Sanitarium, the Church is able to offer support to a number of community based projects including the Turn Your Life Around community programme that teaches “at risk” children life skills and about responsibility; and the STARS youth development programme aimed at developing the skills, motivations and goals of young New Zealander

     

  •  

    QuitNow - aimed at helping people quit smoking and adopt a healthier lifestyle;

     

  •  

    World Vision NZ – assisting young New Zealanders participate in World Vision projects;

     

  •  

    ADRA Charity Fun Run – raising money for ADRA’s projects both nationally and internationally, and many family services and other community-based projects."

     





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 1675824 23-Nov-2016 09:10
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If Weetbix was a food of the highest nutritional value, they probably wouldn't be adding sugar as an ingredient to a cereal most people put some form of additional sugar on when eating it...!






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  # 1675853 23-Nov-2016 09:50
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This is an interesting discussion. I don't have a lot to add as any points I might make have already been made very well by others. For the record, as a vegetarian I am a fan of Sanitarium and I don't really care who owns it. They make good products. I also believe charities should be legally separate from churches. I have no problem with religious organisations doing charitable work, or with genuine charities enjoying special privileges. My problem is with the 19th-century notion that an activity is 'charitable' by definition just because it is associated with some 'religion'. Of course religious organisations should be able to operate charities if they want to, but the charity should be a separate entity judged by its charitable activities, not by its religious connections. And finally, I am a firm non-believer. By that I mean that I have no idea what is out there, no belief about what may be out there, and no confidence that I would understand a thing about it even if I did know what was out there. I think the notion of a personal god as claimed by christians and others is utter nonsense. If there actually is any kind of conscious deity governing the fate of the entire Universe, it sure isn't going to care the slightest whether Uncle Joe and Aunt Fatima attend church, the mosque or the synagogue. 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1675886 23-Nov-2016 10:51
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frankv:

 

Fundamentally, science is based on an irrational belief that things can be explained based on observation. Religion, OTOH, is based on an irrational belief that things can NOT be explained based on observation. The two can perhaps coexist if you believe (irrationally) that most things can be explained, but there are occasional miracles or other things that can never be explained. If you believe (irrationally) that all things that can be explained, then there is no room for God or the supernatural... everything is "natural".

 

 

Science is the modelling of phenomena that can be observed. 

 

No half-decent scientist would claim to be able to explain what they cannot observe.

 

Scientists don't expect to explain everything, ever. Scientists expect to understand things better this year than last year. 

 

But ... every single answer prompts multiple new questions.  So scientists accumulate an ever increasing list of questions.  Proportionally we understand less every day. That's what keeps it interesting.





Mike

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  # 1675929 23-Nov-2016 11:16
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It is quality, not quantity. The questions get bigger, and that is what makes it interesting.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 




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  # 1675952 23-Nov-2016 12:02
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"Sanitarium Health & Wellbeing Company was established by the Seventh-day Adventist Church in New Zealand over 100 years ago to promote and produce plant-based health foods. This is based on the Church's belief that plant-based diets are designated by God, our Creator, for the health of the human race.1 Worldwide, the Church operates health food industries and health-care services based on this philosophy.

 

This from a company that installed 'Up & Go' vending machines in NZ schools. One 250ml 'Up & Go' has around 10 teaspoons of sugar - about three times the daily recommended sugar intake for children in one dispensed drink!

 

Give me a break!

 

Tax them.

 

 


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  # 1675957 23-Nov-2016 12:11
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sxz:

 

frankv:

 

 

 

Fundamentally, science is based on an irrational belief that things can be explained based on observation. Religion, OTOH, is based on an irrational belief that things can NOT be explained based on observation. The two can perhaps coexist if you believe (irrationally) that most things can be explained, but there are occasional miracles or other things that can never be explained. If you believe (irrationally) that all things that can be explained, then there is no room for God or the supernatural... everything is "natural".

 

 

 

 

So no room for rational thought huh?

 

 

laughing

 

What I'm saying is that there is no rational basis for believing that science will explain *everything*. In which case, there is no rational basis for believing that God does not exist. OTOH, there is no rational basis for believing that science will NOT at some point explain everything.

 

A completely rational person doubts everything. undecided

 

 


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  # 1675978 23-Nov-2016 12:50
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dafman:

 

"Sanitarium Health & Wellbeing Company was established by the Seventh-day Adventist Church in New Zealand over 100 years ago to promote and produce plant-based health foods. This is based on the Church's belief that plant-based diets are designated by God, our Creator, for the health of the human race.1 Worldwide, the Church operates health food industries and health-care services based on this philosophy.

 

This from a company that installed 'Up & Go' vending machines in NZ schools. One 250ml 'Up & Go' has around 10 teaspoons of sugar - about three times the daily recommended sugar intake for children in one dispensed drink!

 

Give me a break!

 

Tax them.

 

 

 

 

Based on one point you say tax them,

 

Give me a break!

 

You are forgetting that they are a not for profit entity, that means that they basically pay no company tax at the end of the day, no profit = no tax.

 

As others have said NZ would be FUBAR if not for the charities we have, and that goes for Churches, Marae, local club red cross if you take away the tax free status of one you need to do it for all.

 

If you take all financial incentive away from giving enough will give up giving.


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  # 1675986 23-Nov-2016 13:07
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dickytim:

 

You are forgetting that they are a not for profit entity, that means that they basically pay no company tax at the end of the day, no profit = no tax.

 

As others have said NZ would be FUBAR if not for the charities we have, and that goes for Churches, Marae, local club red cross if you take away the tax free status of one you need to do it for all.

 

If you take all financial incentive away from giving enough will give up giving.

 

 

As you say, any charity that doesn't make a profit will pay no tax. So it won't make any difference to them. It's only "charities" that *do* make a profit (or give the profit to "employees" as untaxed "gifts") that will be hit.

 

 




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  # 1676005 23-Nov-2016 13:27
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dickytim:

 

dafman:

 

"Sanitarium Health & Wellbeing Company was established by the Seventh-day Adventist Church in New Zealand over 100 years ago to promote and produce plant-based health foods. This is based on the Church's belief that plant-based diets are designated by God, our Creator, for the health of the human race.1 Worldwide, the Church operates health food industries and health-care services based on this philosophy.

 

This from a company that installed 'Up & Go' vending machines in NZ schools. One 250ml 'Up & Go' has around 10 teaspoons of sugar - about three times the daily recommended sugar intake for children in one dispensed drink!

 

Give me a break!

 

Tax them.

 

 

 

 

Based on one point you say tax them,

 

Give me a break!

 

You are forgetting that they are a not for profit entity, that means that they basically pay no company tax at the end of the day, no profit = no tax.

 

As others have said NZ would be FUBAR if not for the charities we have, and that goes for Churches, Marae, local club red cross if you take away the tax free status of one you need to do it for all.

 

If you take all financial incentive away from giving enough will give up giving.

 

 

No, what I am saying is that Sanitarium purport to be a provider of God-endorsed health food for the human race, yet here they are pushing unhealthy sugar-laded drinks onto our kids - hardly behaviour I would expect from a religious charity.

 

Further - how do you know Sanitarium are not making a 'profit'? Have you reviewed a set of their audited financial statements recently? Oops, that's right, they don't have to provide these. They could be raking it in from their 'not-for-profit tax-free status' and none of us would be any the wiser.


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  # 1676009 23-Nov-2016 13:30
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So you are saying you know more than IRD and auditors etc




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 




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  # 1676035 23-Nov-2016 13:50
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MikeB4: So you are saying you know more than IRD and auditors etc

 

Nope, just checked, double-checked, what I wrote, and nowhere did I say that I knew more than IRD and auditors etc

 

I did ask, in the absence of being able to review a set of their audited accounts, how do we know they are not milking their not-for-profit tax-free status? Just a little bit of financial transparency would be nice - you know, just like the big tax-paying corporates are required to do.

 

If you do happen to have a set of audited financials for Sanitarium, I'd love to see a copy. I've had a look on their website and all I can find is a reference to 1 Genesis 1:29 which doesn't exactly help.

 

Certainly the Herald have asked the question in the past:

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10816412

 

 


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  # 1676060 23-Nov-2016 14:01
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dafman:

 

MikeB4: So you are saying you know more than IRD and auditors etc

 

Nope, just checked, double-checked, what I wrote, and nowhere did I say that I knew more than IRD and auditors etc

 

I did ask, in the absence of being able to review a set of their audited accounts, how do we know they are not milking their not-for-profit tax-free status? Just a little bit of financial transparency would be nice - you know, just like the big tax-paying corporates are required to do.

 

If you do happen to have a set of audited financials for Sanitarium, I'd love to see a copy. I've had a look on their website and all I can find is a reference to 1 Genesis 1:29 which doesn't exactly help.

 

Certainly the Herald have asked the question in the past:

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10816412

 

 

 

 

 

 

They have to meet legislative criteria in order to gain the tax exemption. That is a matter between them and the IRD.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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